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Old 01-28-2013, 01:55 PM
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Well the 6 lifters that where collapsing has been soaking in oil since last night and are still collapsing today - so im back to my original question, not how to adjust them but shouldn't they all have equal travel when installing them?
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:18 PM
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Yes. Lifters will have equal travel unless the plunger is stuck. New lifters come in the up position out of the box. The internal spring is holding the push rod seat up against the retaining snap ring. Clean the lifters with mineral spirits and let dry. When you set the pre-load, the push rod seat will push down against the internal spring and will hold that setting until the engine fills the lifters with oil.

If the lifters are full of oil, the pre-load adjustment cannot push down against the oil and the pre-load will open the valve instead. The valve will remain open until the oil is bled out of the lifters. If you attempt to start the engine with the valves open......guess what will happen. It will be just like missing a shift at 6,000 RPM.
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:23 PM
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Well the 6 lifters that where collapsing has been soaking in oil since last night and are still collapsing today - so im back to my original question, not how to adjust them but shouldn't the all have equal travel when installing them?
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:28 PM
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if that's what you really want to do, go ahead, however you may want to buy stock in the cam company that you bought from.

I will not be surprised if you wipe out lobes buy setting them that tight, or putting your engine into coil bind and even holding valves open.

take your chances!
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:30 PM
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Should I take apart the "pumped" lifters and drain them?
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:54 PM
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so what keeps solid lifters from the valves hitting the pistons,& bending some valves and push rods?
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:02 PM
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Do not disassemble the lifters. The only way to bleed off lifters that are full of oil is to install them in the engine and set the pre-load at zero.

After all the lifters are set at zero pre-load, turn the engine a few revolutions by hand to force out the excess oil. Do not crank the engine with the starter or you risk engine damage with open valves. After the lifters are bled off, you can set the lifters at the correct pre-load. Only spring in the lifters is holding pressure against the push rod seat and the lifters do not have a hydraulic lock.
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docpsycho View Post
so what keeps solid lifters from the valves hitting the pistons,& bending some valves and push rods?
The lash of solid lifters and the pre-load of hydraulic lifters are set with the lifters on the heel (base circle) of the cam lobes with the valves seated.

If a hydraulic lifter is full of oil and has a hydraulic lock, the push rod seat will remain at the the top of the lifter travel when the lifter is on the heel of the cam lobe. When that occurs, the valve will be held off the seat by the amount of the rocker ratio x half the lifter travel (pre-load).
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:28 PM
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All hyd. lifters should not be pumped up before assembly!!!!! Mouse is on the target with that statement It will damage the engine or destroy the lifters!!!!! Putting them in a bucket of oil onle lubes the outer surfaces and makes a big mess LOL! Anyone that gets new lifters ask for the teck sheet almost all company's say do not fill lifters with oil prior to -------!!! A well trained mechanic knows this and some company's in their tech sheets don't mention it because they take for granted your assembler is well trained!!!!

MouseFink: I'm only backing what you already stated!!! Before some one untrained comes in and says your wrong


Jester


Heres an example of a tech. sheet mentioning lifter prep!!!


Instructions:
1. Lifter Preparation: Remove your new COMP Cams® lifters from the packaging, and clean
the lifters thoroughly in mineral spirits or an equivalent solvent. Remember, in order to protect
your camshaft warranty new COMP Cams® lifters
INSTRUCTIONS
2
COMP Cams®
3406 Democrat Rd.
Memphis, TN 38118
Phone: 901.795.2400
Part #COMP4-115
Revised 3/22/12
Toll Free: 1.800.999.0853
COMP Cams - Performance Camshafts, Lifters, Valve Springs, Rocker Arms
It is not necessary to “pre-pump” hydraulic lifters full of engine oil prior to installation and valve adjustment. It is actually undesirable to do so as the “pumped up” lifters will cause the valves to open during the adjustment process, rather than positioning the lifter plunger in its operating position as it is supposed to do.
“Pre-soaking” hydraulic lifters in a bath of engine oil is a good idea but not mandatory. Doing so ensures that the lifters are adequately lubricated on their outer surfaces prior to installation. It may also result in a quieter engine start up as the oil in the bath may displace some air from the lifter’s plunger reservoir.
Coat the bottoms of all flat tappet lifters with COMP Cams® Cam and Lifter Installation Lube (Part #103) supplied with flat tappet cams. When you install the lifters, make sure they fit well. Flat tappet lifters should rotate freely in the lifter bores. Any excess clearance or tight lifters can cause damage to the camshaft, leading to engine failure. Note: Contact your engine builder ETC,ETC,------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by painted jester; 01-28-2013 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docpsycho View Post
so what keeps solid lifters from the valves hitting the pistons,& bending some valves and push rods?
The idea that the lifters being full of oil will cause them to hit the pistons is just wrong.

Hydraulic lifters will bleed down w/the pressure from the spring even if they're pumped slap full of motor oil and installed that way.

This same malarkey has come up before.

Let me ask this: If the lifters cannot be pumped up/full of oil and then adjusted, how are lifters readjusted after the engine has been run? Obviously anyone who's actually adjusted lifters knows better. And I have pumped the lifters full of oil dozens of times before installing and adjusting them- because that's how I was shown. And yes, I know the manufacturers do not recommend doing this.

Even if the lifters didn't bleed down and they all stayed holding the valves open by the amount of preload you added (which will mean the engine couldn't start, either- but they DO start, and no wondering why, either)- the amount is generally 1/2 turn, or about 0.062", which is less than the recommended valve to piston clearance.

So anyway, follow the directions below under Adjusting hydraulic lifters, or anyplace that has a version of the "EO/IC method.

Do not worry about some being solid feeling and some being loose feeling- UNLESS you think they might have sat around so long that the light machine oil/mineral spirits has turned into varnish and caused the plungers to stick. It wouldn't hurt to take one of the "full" lifters apart to inspect/see what's up w/it.

When it comes time to set the lifters to zero lash, jiggle the pushrod up and down as opposed to twisting it between a thumb and fingers when you go to find zero lash.

Valve train points to check
Valve train geometry
Adjusting hydraulic lifters
Cam break in

Edit- Jester, I didn't see your post while I was typing mine. Not here to argue w/you. Just stating the facts as I know them. Nothing more for me to say on the subject.

Last edited by cobalt327; 01-28-2013 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:39 PM
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Edit- Jester, I didn't see your post while I was typing mine. Not here to argue w/you. Just stating the facts as I know them. Nothing more for me to say on the subject.[/QUOTE]

No problem Cobalt Nothing wrong with either of our posts!!!! Just different procedures.

Mouse already stated to turn over the engine by hand to compress lifter to its proper plunger installation position if it was pre filled!

I don't suggest pumping up lifters before installation because: if 1 or 2 lifters out of 8 are filled to capacity with a preload and valves are closed on the heal of the cam and the engine is started for initial break in and is at 2500 rpm the lifter has no time to bleed down to operating position and valves are momentarily off their seats on just off the heal of the cam lobe untill they bleed off to normal operating position! and then clatter. If the engine sets for a period of time before starting lifters will bleed down. different lifters have different bleed rates!

Cobalt: you already know the rest of this. but some on here don't

Jester

__________________________________________________ _________________
To anyone interested:

Most trained builders install lifters with proper lubrication and adjusted then oil prime the fresh engine while turning crank by hand, untill you see all rocker arms flowing oil so all lifters are full with spring pressure. Then readjusted before initial start up! and then adjust again after break in.

I do my initial adjustment on lifters while the intake is off on a fresh Chevy build by watching the plunger and lock ring on the lifter. at the point the plunger just moves away from the lock ring I give it 1/4 turn on stock lifters. I finish assembly and prime eng. I then run break in, for cam about 45 min. at 2000 to 2500 rpm after cam break in I run new valve spring break in ( heat seat the springs) about 5 to 8 hrs. Some new springs are already broke in ( ask for tech sheet) Then I do final valve adjustments hot! I then do highway break in and adjust valves one more time.

Chevy engines are very forgiving when installing pre filled lifters, damage is very rare but Ford side oilers or Chrysler RB engines etc. are not (damage can be caused!)

Most people and many mechanics don't know that Hyd. lifters bleed down after shut off the only reason they don't make noise is because there is no air pocket ( because of preload) it still has an oil cushion with spring pressure to keep contact till they reach their pumped up normal hight after oil pressure comes up! Fords and RB Chry.s, ETC have a pre load at lifter bottom out (complete bleed down) ( lifter compressed ) thus these engines are not as forgiving. Rhoads, anti pump ups etc are a different story and a different thread.

Thats how I was taught and have used for 50 years if I'm behind the times This old dog only has a few years left to learn LOL If my old ways can cause any damage let me know with something to back you up, if not let me lay!! LOL


Jester
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:35 PM
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Im a nobody, but just thought I would add that I just watched a few you tube videos (shop or company how to videos) and this seems to be a very debated subject. Most lifters come with directions tho and that seems to be the best procedure to follow. That being said, hydroulic lifters as I haved learned, should be lubed but installed dry and unlocked up. Preload set between a 1/2 and 3/4 turns past zero lash and using the twist method to find when tension just starts(zero lash) just my 2 cents setting hot is only done on solid lifters after having been set cold intially.
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 71nova355 View Post
Im a nobody, but just thought I would add that I just watched a few you tube videos (shop or company how to videos) and this seems to be a very debated subject. Most lifters come with directions tho and that seems to be the best procedure to follow. That being said, hydroulic lifters as I haved learned, should be lubed but installed dry and unlocked up. Preload set between a 1/2 and 3/4 turns past zero lash and using the twist method to find when tension just starts(zero lash) just my 2 cents setting hot is only done on solid lifters after having been set cold intially.
355: The bounce method is better then the twist. if you can see the top of the lifter the movement is best overall. You adjust hydraulics hot because its more acurate! Push rod ,lifter, valve stem,lash caps, rockers, rocker ball, rocker stud, rocker nut, cam lobes, etc When hot expand and all the expansion values added up can change your lash or preload from a cold setting. You tube has a lot of bad info your on one of the best sights on the web for info!!!! And learning!!!! Hotrodders!!!!

Jester
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:59 PM
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do what you want, apparently a big debate, but ill be willing to say that most people that have experience in cams and lifters will tell you that setting your rockers 1/2 to 3/4 past 0 with dry lifters, when they pump up from engine being run and getting warm, you'll be re-adjusting them.


read comp cams facts page. they stipulate that any roller lifters and roller rockers should be rebuild or replaced after 1 year of use.

Now how is it that Chevrolet, ford and Chrysler among all others who use roller motors can last 200 to 250,000 miles without problems, but comp cams products requires there products to be replaced.

knowing how comp cams and other large companys operate, i'd rather follow advice of 1000 peoples who do this occasionally for the past 20 to 40 years than a company who's purpose is to make a sale from you
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prumora1 View Post
do what you want, apparently a big debate, but ill be willing to say that most people that have experience in cams and lifters will tell you that setting your rockers 1/2 to 3/4 past 0 with dry lifters, when they pump up from engine being run and getting warm, you'll be re-adjusting them.


read comp cams facts page. they stipulate that any roller lifters and roller rockers should be rebuild or replaced after 1 year of use.

Now how is it that Chevrolet, ford and Chrysler among all others who use roller motors can last 200 to 250,000 miles without problems, but comp cams products requires there products to be replaced.

knowing how comp cams and other large companys operate, i'd rather follow advice of 1000 peoples who do this occasionally for the past 20 to 40 years than a company who's purpose is to make a sale from you


Your knowledge astounds me!

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