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Old 01-01-2011, 10:38 PM
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New motor wont run unless the timing is way advanced

Initial start up of new Ford Racing crate motor.

The motor will not run unless the timing is advanced to about 50-60 degrees BTDC!!! If I try to bring the timing back down to 15*-20* btdc then the motor backfires through the intake and dies very quickly.

This is the motor:

http://www.fordracingparts.com/part...tKeyField=11069

Instread of using the MSD dizzy, an OE points dizzy is currently installed with a standard motor products OE type coil. The vacuum line is removed from the dizzy as I am doing this.

The plug wires are properly installed.

I did get piston #1 at 0* btdc and line up the rotor with the cap terminal that goes to cylinder #1 plug wire. I double and triple checked all this.

What could be causing this problem?

Extra info....

No vacuum leaks
200 psi in each cylinder
6psi fuel pressure
500 cfm eddy carb
10.25:1 compression ratio

Thanks in advance

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Old 01-02-2011, 01:59 AM
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first off, i am a corvette guy. but as a mechanic i have worked on tons of fords. i have a pantera.

my thoughts:

wrong damper (on a ford) they changed the keyways all the time.

slipped damper, it happens all the time,
your timing is nuts.

find true TDC by the positive stop method, mark it on the damper and time from there.

i always find true TDC on every engine i build, if you don't know where TDC is nothing else matters.
after finding TDC you can diall in the cam, the timing and the advance...

incidently, it is an engine, an engine is a cumbustion machine.
a motor is an electrical device (starter motor, heater motor, window motor ETC.)

i know this will not change, but i hate the terminology that has been accepted of calling an engine a motor...

Last edited by techron; 01-02-2011 at 02:19 AM.
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Old 01-02-2011, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techron
first off, i am a corvette guy. but as a mechanic i have worked on tons of fords. i have a pantera.

my thoughts:

wrong damper (on a ford) they changed the keyways all the time.

slipped damper, it happens all the time,
your timing is nuts.

find true TDC by the positive stop method, mark it on the damper and time from there.

i always find true TDC on every engine i build, if you don't know where TDC is nothing else matters.
after finding TDC you can diall in the cam, the timing and the advance...

incidently, it is an engine, an engine is a cumbustion machine.
a motor is an electrical device (starter motor, heater motor, window motor ETC.)

i know this will not change, but i hate the terminology that has been accepted of calling an engine a motor...
Thanks for the response.

I already found true TDC and it lined up perfectly with the 0*btdc on the damper.

When I say it "runs" when overly advanced, I don't mean it runs right. I just mean that it will start up and run....as in overly advanced is the ONLY way it will run. It runs somewhat rough and only at a high idle. So, I don't think that remarking the damper is the answer.

I am convinced I have some other issue going on that is causing this, although I am not yet sure what. But, at this point it is driving me nuts.

Engine, motor, motor, engine.........I always used them as one and the same. Now that you mentioned them being technically different I may start to point it out as wrong when other poeple interchange them.
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Old 01-02-2011, 04:35 AM
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Are you sure you are using the correct firing order, the SBF has two different orders depending on how the cam is ground. tThere is the 221-260-289-302 order and the 351W/5.0L (modern 302) order. They will run wired wrong but won't run well.
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Old 01-02-2011, 12:01 PM
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It could be lean, try choking the top of the carb with your hand see if it runs better.
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Old 01-02-2011, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72
Are you sure you are using the correct firing order, the SBF has two different orders depending on how the cam is ground. tThere is the 221-260-289-302 order and the 351W/5.0L (modern 302) order. They will run wired wrong but won't run well.
The specified firing order in the handbook that came with the motor is the modern 302 firing order (13726548) and thats what I am using. I suppose I could call comp cams verify that this is the correct firing order for the cam in the engine and eliminate the possibility that Ford Racing misprinited it.
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Old 01-02-2011, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiscus
It could be lean, try choking the top of the carb with your hand see if it runs better.
I have had two different carbs (new) on the engine since I started this project and the symptoms were the same with both carbs. I doubt both were set up too lean, although anything is possible. Ford recommends a 500cfm carb for the motor, and thats what is on there now.....Edelbrock 1404.....thats a 500cfm tuned for performance. Previously there was a Holley Street Avenger 570. Nothing changed between the two.

I will choke it and give it a try though.
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Old 01-02-2011, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z-adamson
The specified firing order in the handbook that came with the motor is the modern 302 firing order (13726548) and thats what I am using. I suppose I could call comp cams verify that this is the correct firing order for the cam in the engine and eliminate the possibility that Ford Racing misprinited it.
Switch the wires and try it , It won't take long and you will know. Try standard firing order for the 302. 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8 . The firing order you are using is the 351 windsor and the 5.0 firing order. Are you goint in the right direction on the distributor "CCW' OR "CW" ?


Cole
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Old 01-02-2011, 01:00 PM
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UPDATE:

Problem still not fixed.

Some things I am beginning to wonder:

1) Could the timing chain be off a tooth? That would effect both cam timing and ignition timing and maybe I have to compensate by advancing the dizzy so much because the camshaft timing is retarded by a tooth or more. I consider this a worst case scenerio.

2) I read online about another guy with a similar problem and the problem was the coil. Something about the coil pattern was off. I am not sure what exactly that means, but given the cost of a new coil I may just give it a shot just to see if it fixes it. If it doesn't, then I have a spare coil which I would like to have anyways, so it's a win/win.

3) I am beginning to think that maybe my PCV valve (Standard Motor Products V158T) is flowing too much. I picked the PCV valve out by orientation, hose size and grommet size without giving consideration intended application. After I got it I sucked on it with my mouth just to see how much it flows and I noticed it flows MUCH more than some of the Motorcraft EV140 PCV valves I have had in the past.

Maybe the high flow of the PCV valve is causing a lean condition / vacuum leak condition (like fiscus suggests) and that is causing my problem. As cheap as the EV140 PCV valve is I will likely give it a shot.

Keep the suggestion coming!!

Thanks
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Old 01-02-2011, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eloc431962
Switch the wires and try it , It won't take long and you will know. Try standard firing order for the 302. 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8 . The firing order you are using is the 351 windsor and the 5.0 firing order. Are you goint in the right direction on the distributor "CCW' OR "CW" ?


Cole
I have the wires oriented for a CCW distributor. In the past all 302s went CCW, so I set this one up the same way without giving it much thought. I will look to confirm that the dizzy does go CCW and I may give the other firing order a shot.

Thanks
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Old 01-02-2011, 02:41 PM
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UPDATE#2

1) I blocked off the PCV valve and the brake booster line eliminating them from the equation. I set the dizzy back to about 10*btdc (as opposed to the overly advanced setting that it was at allowing it to run) and it made no difference. The motor would fire up, run at about 2000 rpm and within a second or two the rpms would fall down to zero and the engine would die. This is what it would do before I experimented with the timing to make it run for more than a couple seconds.

So it looks like I can eliminate the PCV valve as a culprit.

Another thing that is strange is that when it was running at about 2000 rpm for that second or two I would open the throttle plates to rev the engine and keep it alive and the rpms would not go up at all. Opening the throttle had little to no effect. If anything it made it die quicker. I noticed this before as well.

2) The 13726548 firing order is correct and the dizzy rotation matches the order in which the plug wires are installed. The 15426378 firing order did nothing to address the problem
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:51 PM
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did you try putting your hand over the carb?
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Old 01-02-2011, 06:19 PM
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This is a long shot, but I'll throw it out there. Double check your gas supply. I had bad gas when I was trying to start up my 460 and it acted like it was a timing issue. The engine would just about kick over or fire and sputter then die out. out of frustration, I drained the gas tank put in fresh gas and it fired right off.
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Old 01-02-2011, 10:22 PM
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Im voting your off a tooth on the cam.
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:28 AM
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It is possible the timing is one tooth off. But, have you checked for debris in the bowl, stuck needle, or, clogged fuel filter?
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