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Old 12-02-2006, 05:34 AM
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New To Primer...

hi, well I've decided since i just spent a bunch of money on my first air compressor i should put it to use and use it...

im planning on primering my car myself since im doing all the body work...im wondering if these combos will work or if you can see something wrong with them...

Sandable Primer - DP840 - http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/pr...?product=50200

Sealer Primer - DS693 - http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/pr...?product=50201

Hardener (used with both) - DH658 - http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/pr...?product=50199

obviously do body work first, then sandable, guide coat, block sand, repeat etc, then sealer primer, then base-color coat the clear....right steps?

thanks for any help!

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Old 12-02-2006, 06:46 AM
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Your steps will work fine. Most guys on here will put down a coat of epoxy primer over and under thier bodywork, but bodywork has been done and still is over metal. Epoxy will stick well to the metal as well as seal it from moisture and air reaching it. This is the only type of primer that I know of that will totally seal. If you were planning on priming the whole car you could skip that sealer if you wanted, unless its color would benefit you in coverage of the basecoat. It says urethane based sealer, so don't know how much different it would really be then your primer, other then being thinner to lay smoother. Many urethane primers can be reduced and used as a sealer, or you can just final sand the last coat of primer for paint. What I do for jobs that I don't want to get as involved and expensive on is do bodywork, prime the bodywork areas and if the rest of the car is straight, urethane prime the whole thing to get it all one color. Final sand it with the grit needed for the paint you are using and paint over that. As long as the mil thickness is enough on the primer, shouldn't have any problems. If you want to seal, you might consider getting a few quarts of epoxy primer. Then you could use that over baremetal and bodywork areas and then use that as your sealer before paint. I think it would be more beneficial to you then the urethane based sealer. I am not familar with sherwin williams products. Maybe martinsr can help you more with suggestions.
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Old 12-02-2006, 07:13 PM
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okay well you see, i was told epoxy primer is NOT SANDABLE and from what i can see, it doesn't say its compatible with the sandable primer i want to get (but doesn't say no either)....which is why i figured the sealer primer would serve the same purpose...

theres patches of bare metal where i have feathered the body filler work and also original paint sanded down...its a 68 mustang coupe by the way...anyways, i didn't want to spray something i couldn't sand as the first coat of primer because i likely will need to apply a second coat at least after i block it...ideally, id like to just spray the sandable primer over the body work, block it out, spray, block etc, then spray an epoxy primer over that as a FINAL-FINAL...then color coat/clear coat...but im not sure if the epoxy will be bad or good with the sandable primer...?
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Old 12-03-2006, 04:48 PM
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I don't know what epoxy primer you were checking on, but epoxy primer is usually compatable with other primers. The primer that you picked is not a DTM(direct to metal) primer. That means that the metal needs to be treated with either an etch primer or metal etch, before applying the primer.

Ideallt you want to apply epoxy primer before any filler and sandable primers. That will seal out moisture from attacking the metal. Any sandable primer and body fillers are absorbant and will allow moisture to get to the metal.

As far as the epoxy not being "sandable", that is refering to them being used as a "filler" type of primer. Epoxies are not normally a high build primer. They also cure over a longer period of time than the normal higher build 2K primers. I have not seen any that you cannot sand at all.

Aaron
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Old 12-03-2006, 06:56 PM
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okay so what do you recommend...i have bare metal spots, i have sanded down paint, and i have body filler over both areas because i was told it wasn't necessary to strip the entire car of paint before, just the chipping paint areas and areas that weren't solidly adhered to the cars metal...

i was just going to finish the filler work as good as i could, clean it off, then spray some kind of primer...then fix anything thats not perfect by block sanding and skim fillering....repeat until done...what kind of primer should i use for that then? epoxy? filler? im getting confused now...someone set me straight....
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Old 12-03-2006, 07:12 PM
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Idealy you want epoxy primer on any bare metal, before any filler is applied. After epoxy, you do any filler work. Once done with the filler, you spot in any bare metal with epoxy, and then spray high build over that for blocking. Since you have already done filler work on the bare metal, I would still suggest spraying epoxy on the bare metal areas before high build 2K. I hope you have not applied filler over the old paint. That won't last long in most cases. All body filler should be applied over either epoxy(preferred) or bare metal.

Aaron
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Old 12-03-2006, 07:26 PM
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2k urethane will stick to metal, but not as well as an epoxy will. An etch or better yet an epoxy under the 2k urethane would be best. Etch shouldn't be needed as long as the metal is cleaned of any corrosion, and sanded. The epoxy will also provide a moisture barrier whereas the urethane is somewhat porous. Bodyfillers can be used over epoxy primer, most etch primers have strict warnings against using bodyfillers over them, and the only filler I've seen recommended over urethane primers are the 2k finishing type in moderation. It depends on what you are expecting, the time and money you want to spend. IMO the best would be epoxy over all baremetal, leave sit overnight, do your bodyfiller work, only have to scuff the epoxy with some 180 if its been a few days or more (check your epoxy manufacturers time window for applying filler). If you are still in the window you can apply right over the epoxy primer without sanding. Once your bodyfilling is done, apply more epoxy primer over the sanded through areas and bodyfiller. Then follow with some urethane filler primer for sanding and blocking. The amount of rounds depends on how good your filler work, straightness is. Prior to paint, seal the whole car with epoxy primer to get the car all one color and the advantages it will give. Or you could grind to baremetal, do your filler work, apply more urethane filler primer over the bodywork, baremetal area, and block sand. Final sand it when all is straight and paint over that and the old sanded paint (as long as its sound and a factory or catalyzed paint). But if it will help with coverage (likely if there is a big difference in the color you are painting and the new one), then prime and final sand the whole thing, or use a sealer, weather epoxy or urethane based. Most of your epoxy and urethane primers can be reduced to use as a sealer, and you may not need to buy a seperate product for a sealer. I suggest you read through some old threads about primers, as it has been covered many times and the benefits of epoxy. It depends, do you want a used car lot job/production shop that will only use urethane primer and slap filler over baremetal, or do you want more of a restoration type, epoxy, filler(as little as possible, lots of time straightening metal) a filler primer and then epoxy seal all, thats going to have a better shot of looking good for a long time. Or maybe something in between. You have to decide what you want to spend on product and the time you want to spend.
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Old 12-03-2006, 07:43 PM
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something in between.

so what if i was able to grind the filler off bare metal spots, then rough up the original paint, epoxy over that, fill, block, 2k primer, fill, block, 2k primer, final epoxy coat, color coat, clear coat....

am i getting the right idea now? it seems like it would work to me...i didn't really do any filler work on the original paint yet, just bare metal....but if its roughed up with like 36...it should be fine i think...

so anyways tell me what you think about that plan...

thanks
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Old 12-04-2006, 05:41 PM
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If it is not a DTM or self etching primer, it should not go on bare metal, unless it is an epoxy, which would be self etching.

Do not apply filler on top of old paint, even if you do sand it, and apply epoxy primer over it. You will be depending on the bond of the paint to hold the filler.

Aaron
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Old 12-04-2006, 06:14 PM
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okay, so i will just go back and get rid of all of the filler work...then go from there with the epoxy primer of EVERYTHING...then do filler work, 2k primer, blocking etc then a final epoxy coat...then base coat/clear coat...do i finally got it now?

thanks for bearing with me.
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Old 12-04-2006, 06:24 PM
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Aaron, I've got a bonneville here I stripped over 5 years ago, and did it on the cheap. Sat outside through Wisconsin winters. Used marhyde universal over the metal. The primer and paint are sticking just fine, other then the poor quick rust repairs I did coming back through. Why, I just wanted to do that car as cheap as possible and not look like a big rust bucket. Other then rust coming back through which I expected, I am surprised how well it held up overall. I agree, that a dtm or epoxy primer is going to be better all around, but urethane will stick if the metal is clean and sanded. Lots of production bodyshops will just spray urethane primers over metal, and if it didn't stick or at least last a little while, I don't see how they could continue to do it.
He sounds like he is willing to spend some money and effort for a better job, so go to baremetal past where you will be feathering out you bodyfiller and epoxy prime it. Redo you filler work over the epoxy and when you have straight sanded filler, apply another coat of epoxy as a seal over the filler and sanded through to metal areas, and then follow with a urethane fill primer for ease of sanding and filling ability- blocksanding, sand scratches. If the rest of the car is catalyzed paint, and straight. then when you have your bodywork done, spray epoxy sealer on the whole car to get all one color. If you have multiple spots on the car that are going to need some fill or work, then you might want to urethane prime it all and sand instead of epoxy. Epoxy will give a little better surface to paint over. If you use epoxy for a sealer over the whole thing, it could be sanded too, but you might have to do it wetsanding. I guess it hard to say without knowing exactly what you are dealing with, and have a combination of a good painting foundation, but not using a ton of product.
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Old 12-04-2006, 06:28 PM
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That sounds good. Anyplace you want to do filler work should be stripped to bare metal, epoxy primer, filler, then 2K, then seal with epoxy. You will be good to go with your finish coats from there and be sealed up for a long lasting job.

Aaron
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Old 12-04-2006, 08:44 PM
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JMO, but there's no way I'd paint over 38 year old paint. If this is a car you plan to keep then spend the extra time and strip all that old paint off. Sand the bare metal with 80 grit primer, clean the metal good with a waterborne wax and grease remover and spray on two coats of epoxy primer. The Epoxy will provide a foundation for a job that will last for many years. If you repair and shoot over that old paint I guarantee down the road it will haunt you.

Strip and prime a few panels at a time to keep the project manageable. The extra time spent will be well worth the effort.
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Old 12-04-2006, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baddbob
JMO, but there's no way I'd paint over 38 year old paint. If this is a car you plan to keep then spend the extra time and strip all that old paint off. Sand the bare metal with 80 grit primer, clean the metal good with a waterborne wax and grease remover and spray on two coats of epoxy primer. The Epoxy will provide a foundation for a job that will last for many years. If you repair and shoot over that old paint I guarantee down the road it will haunt you.

Strip and prime a few panels at a time to keep the project manageable. The extra time spent will be well worth the effort.

yeah thats starting to become more and more of a good idea in my mind...i would do it with one of those plastic abrasive discs on my grinder but cant really do it inside because of sparks and don't really wanna do it out outside because of pissing off neighbors and such...I ordered a DA sander and haven't really used them a lot to strip paint...would that work good with 80 grit or something?

i guess i could try paint stripper but i have before and its ended up being a huge gummy mess....sort of don't want to get into that again if i don't have to....
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Old 12-04-2006, 09:23 PM
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68 mustang, Bob is right, I'd strip off the old paint and do that car right with epoxy first. Unless you know all that was done over the years its been around, you are not going to know what you exactly have, what repairs were done, how many coats of paint, and if there is still 1k factory products used at that time under all of it. Its your best assurance of not doing it all over again down the road a little. If this were something like a 1987 escort and you were on a tight budget, I'd say just do your bodywork and prime it, epoxy any bare metal spots. Now knowing what you have, it will be a little more work, but starting fresh with an epoxy base is going to give you a good foundation for a long lasting job. Thats whats hard about answering things over the internet, you don't really know the exact state of the car they are working on, and if they will spend the amount of time and money to do it right. This place has everything from someone working on a very valueable car to some young kid who has his first car, and you are just trying to convince him to use a 2k primer instead of rattle cans. Thats why I try to do a little digging and find out more about there situation and what they are expecting.There is a lot of valueable information in the knowledge base and past threads if you are willing to spend a good amount of time reading. Similar questions to yours have been asked and answered before. You can also read Barry K's perfect paint job, many have followed that with success. You wouldn't necessarily have to reclear, unless you want to go that far, but the primer and filler recommendation could be followed no matter which companys products you choose to use, just stay within that companies time windows on products. http://southernpolyurethanes.com/perfect%20paint.htm
If you have the compressor to handle it, a 8" orbital such as a national detroit 900 works good for removing paint on large flat panels. A smaller da will work too, but if you move the counterweight to grind mode to get the first of it off, it may make things go a little easier. 80 grit is about what you want to use to remove. I don't like stripper either. I use it on limited areas. Actually a combination of methods seems to work best for me, they all seem to have different areas where they work the best. I worked on a '67 mustang a few years ago,and lots of surprises hiding on that one. If the paint wouldn't have been stripped, a lot of stuff would have been waiting to come back to bite.

Last edited by kenseth17; 12-04-2006 at 09:33 PM.
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