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Old 09-04-2006, 08:12 PM
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Newly rebuilt 327 shudders & other ??'s

I just had a 64 chevy 327-250hp bored 030, heads milled 020, nickel valve seats, stainless 194 intake valves installed. I was told the valve spring pressure is now 120 to open and 240 closed. (I think thats what he said.) Pistons are stock type with the four valve reliefs. Cam specs are in the attached picture. Sorry but I have a lot of questions. If you can help I would appreciate it. Engine has 200 miles on it, at idle if you increase RPMs slowly up to about 1800-2000 you can feel a shudder through the gas pedal, like something is out of balance. He said he may not have gotten the harmonic balancer completely on, but I don't think that is the problem anyway. Would you have any idea what that is? There is about 3/16th of an inch between the balancer and the timing indicator. Also, there is a very bad vibration when driving at different speeds... 40..60.. or 70mph or whatever. It vibrates like the drive shaft was put in the wrong position but I tried flipping it over and it didn't help. The whole car shakes like the drive shaft or something is bent, but it didn't do it before, and the drive shaft and universals are okay. There is one other thing I'm going to check. Fly wheel is tight, torque converter is tight, but I'm hoping this may be my problem. I mounted fly wheel and torque converter to engine on the ground and then mounted the transmission and put it in together. Should I have left the torque converter loose and then put the transmission to the motor and then tightened the converter?? The tran. did seem maybe just a little in a bind tightening the bolts. Do you think by tightening the convertor first it may be just a hair out of position and wobbling? What do you think my horsepower is now? After I add headers high rise intake and 650 eddelbrock carb. Oh, one more thing, when I had the 2 speed power glide out, I pulled the shaft completely out of the front twice and put it back in- don't know why, I just did it. Do you think something fell loose when I pulled the shaft out? If you wanna help me with my horse power calculation, it also had a 3angle valve job, and the engine was professionally rebuilt, I know this is long but I appreciate all your help. P.S. Do you know what degree I should set the timing at. The machinest made me a mark an inch and 15/16th from the top dead center mark and said to set it there and it seems to run fine there. The shudder at 1800-2000 no tach- it may be a plug wire breaking down- it smooths out and then shudders and comes to a smooth point... back and forth. The bad vibration on the highway at 60/70mph- if you put it in neutral with the engine at idle it still vibrates. Sorry for all the questions but I know you people have good judgement and maybe I can help you one day. Thanks, dirtslinger

The pic of the cams is attached. Thanks!
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Old 09-05-2006, 12:23 AM
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I,m going to give this a shot....had to read it several times to try and take it all in. You,ve got your spring rates backwards ( which isnt your problem ) should be 120 closed and 240 open. You say it was "professionally built" and the guy tells you he may not have gotten the ballancer on all the way???? Now if thats what he really told you then he's definately not a "builder" of any kind or he's just nuts!! If your crank pulley lines up with your water pump pulley then thats a good indication that the ballancer is on all the way.
I think heres your main problem, you installed the flexplate on the crank then bolted the torque coverter to it and THEN bolted the trans up to the block?? Did you make sure the torque conv. was seated into the trans pump? You ALWAYS install the torque conv. into the trans. and then turn it until it goes in about an inch and engages the trans pump. If you didnt do that I really dont know how you could have bolted the trans up to the block, and you probably wrecked the converter and the pump.
I,m not going to go into your H.P. question because you have a lot to do first just to get this thing driveable. But if this is basically a stock rebuild then that cam is WAY too big. You need to tow the car to a REAL transmission mechanic and have him take a look at your trans.
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Old 09-05-2006, 08:29 AM
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Your two prime suspects are the harmonic balancer and the torque converter. Your motor/transmission installation method is different but probably not damaging. I would probably loosen all the bolts on the torque converter/flex plate, spin the motor a few times and retorque them and recheck for out of balance condition. I then would try another harmonic balancer that is known to be good. In the back of my mind, I would think the "professional builder" may have been suspect of the HB to state may not have tightend it down enough. One last long shot would be the fan. You could remove the belt for a quick check to eliminate that possibility right off the bat since it is quick and easy.

Trees
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Old 09-05-2006, 09:16 AM
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The converter, flywheel and trans are probably all OK if they are bolted up. You did install them out of order but aparently when you bolted the trans to the engine, the converter whent into the pump OK or it wouldn't move at all when you put it in gear or would make a LOT of racket and probably break the trans case..

The Harmonic balancer should be on far enough that the stock pointer is just above the timing marks. Look at another engine to compare. You can leave it short and if you have multiple belt grouves in the pulley, one of them might line up. I think though if you leave it short enough to vibrate, oil would probably go by the seal.

Lots of things can cause a vibration. If the engine vibrates at 1800-2000 RPM only, it is probably an ignition problem. Start looking there.

A highway vibration at 70 MPH with the engine idiling in neutral is likely a tire with a defect, a bent wheel or a missing balance weight. It is pretty easy for this stuff to get damaged during an engine removal/replacement. Have them spin balanced to find the problem. If not, look at the drive shaft to see if a balance weight got knocked off during the changover.
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Old 09-05-2006, 08:30 PM
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hey,thanks guys, i,m a 327 nut too i , had rear of engine off of ground high enough after mounting flex plate and converter that i could twist the tranny untill it fell into place /into the two groves on converter, it was up against engine block and all idid was, stick the bolts in and tighten. but,,,, converter , would have centered better on shaft if i had left it loose, i think anyway,the guy is 62 yrs old, and a well known race enginebuilder ,,on harmonic balancer he told me it might be off one eighth inch , he hasn,t worked on an old 64 block for years,, it only has the rubber thing holding it on ,,no bolt ..,,if the cam is too big what should i do ??? i told him that i wanted to install a 350 turbo,,andstall converter later ,,with headers a good, intake, and 650 edelbrock carb. cam still too big with that ??? maybe he did screw up ,,i don,t know.....,,,anyway, i,ll lossen conv. a little and try that ,, should i just spin it over,, or start it?? i,llleave bolts kinda snug if i start it.. thank all of you,,takes me a while to get back to you ,, working 7 days a week.. thanks again,, i,ll let you know what happens
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:42 PM
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DON"T TURN THE ENGINE OVER WITH THE BOLTS LOOSE.
Take the bolts all the way out of the converter, then turn it, by hand. Check it for any roughness or binding. put the bolts back in.

You may be feeling the stalling of the stock converter against an engine that doesn't have much torque at 1800 RPM. This cam wouldn't start coming on until around 2800. The vibration is probably lugging of the engine.

How tall are your tires? You probably have a 3.08 gear if it is the original rear end. Where you will be in trouble is if you try to run 20" tires and a factory 3.08 Gear. These are heavy cars and the 327 needs gear, especially with a powerglide. Original tire sizes were 7.50 - 14s so watch the overall tire diameter and final gearing.

This cam is not too big. 218 @.050 is not a big cam. Only 300 lift at the cam, 450 lift at the valve. Not a truck cam but useable if you have a converter with a stall speed around 2800 to 3000 in the powerglide(more will just generate more heat) and will put 4.11 gears in it. A 350 trans has a lower 1st gear which would help some.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtslingerrc
I just had a 64 chevy 327-250hp bored 030, heads milled 020, nickel valve seats, stainless 194 intake valves installed. I was told he highway at 60/70mph- if you put it in neutral with the engine at idle it still vibrates. Sorry for all the questions but I know you people have good judgement and maybe I can help you one day. Thanks, dirtslinger

The pic of the cams is attached. Thanks!
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Old 09-06-2006, 05:03 PM
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thanks,choctaw bob,,and you other guys,,,i,ll heed your advice and take bolts out and spin conv. by hand. , i didn,t fell good about starting it with bolts loose either..i thought it was a checked,, harmonic baln. it lines up perfect with water pump pully..,,also took belt off fan and alt. still vibrates..it does have stock tires and gears ..i put a stick to my ear and against tranny [conv.} area .,, really noisey...forget to mention i did this before i took engine out ,,because i heard a clicking and clanking in trans. one night and somethin very noisey;; but it went away.. [ in trans.casing area} but it shifts great..also the vibration gets worse the farther you drive it ;;not to bad when cold ;; if i remove bolts completely from conv.;; do you think it would be stupid to start engine ??? that would let me check out smoothness of engine.. if flex pl. dosen,t grab conv.. ok thanks see u later dirtslinger RC PS 4..11 GEARS where to get best price ?? same houseing ??? need bigger axles ???
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Old 09-06-2006, 05:50 PM
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I would run the same rear end. We ran strong 409s in those cars in the 60s so it can handle the 327 OK. Summit, Jeggs or StarPerf.com all can sell you gears. Buy the cheapest Richmonds. They are good quality and will last a long time. 3.70s or 3.90s might be better if you do some highway driving.
You can start the engine with the converter bolts out. You should be able to slide the converter back just a little so it doesn't drag on the flywheel and make a racket.

It soulds like the bearings are worn out in the trans. If it is as old as the car you should probably pull it out. If you pull it out, you can sell it for enough money to buy a performance rebuilt turbo 350 and 2800 stall converter from Summit or even cheaper locally. Those aluminum case powerglides are getting scarce. They work really well in cars under 3,000 pounds and big gears. If you have the money, get a 700 R4 with a lockup converter. This will alow you to run 4.10 gears and still cruise the freeway at 70 mph at 2,000 RPM for good mileage.

Try the engine with the converter unbolted and the belt off but not for long enough for it to get hot with no water pump runnung. Spin the water pump. Is it smooth> Take the fan and juggle it, is the clutch loose or locked up? does the water pump have slack? Spin and wiggle all the accessories pulleys. Run your engine in the dark. Then you can easily see plug wires arcing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtslingerrc
thanks,choctaw bob,,and you other guys,,,i,ll heed your advice and take bolts out and spin conv. by hand. , i didn,t fell good about starting it with bolts loose either..i thought it was a checked,, harmonic baln. it lines up perfect with water pump pully..,,also took belt off fan and alt. still vibrates..it does have stock tires and gears ..i put a stick to my ear and against tranny [conv.} area .,, really noisey...forget to mention i did this before i took engine out ,,because i heard a clicking and clanking in trans. one night and somethin very noisey;; but it went away.. [ in trans.casing area} but it shifts great..also the vibration gets worse the farther you drive it ;;not to bad when cold ;; if i remove bolts completely from conv.;; do you think it would be stupid to start engine ??? that would let me check out smoothness of engine.. if flex pl. dosen,t grab conv.. ok thanks see u later dirtslinger RC PS 4..11 GEARS where to get best price ?? same houseing ??? need bigger axles ???
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Old 09-06-2006, 06:42 PM
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thanks again bob,, checked wires in dark/ ok,, new water pump,,ok ,,i didn,t realize a p. glide was worth so much i can get 2 or 3 real cheap.. now u will call me reeeeaaalllyy,,,stupid idid this work to the original all nos. matching engine intake, heads, block, were cast within days of each other,, one head same day as block... had 41000 on it . rings broke on no. 5 and 6 cyl. from preignition ,,builder said..,, thats why i bored it 0.30 i wonder what i could get for this engine if i put back stock cam ??? engine builder tried to get me to take it home and bring him another block ,, but i;m so damn hardheaded i get pissed off at my own self sometimes!!! might clone it into impala SS anyway..haven,t pulled converter yet,, but i,ll let u know how it turns out.. thanks..
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Old 09-06-2006, 10:21 PM
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You are welcome. Let me know if I can help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtslingerrc
thanks again bob,, checked wires in dark/ ok,, new water pump,,ok ,,i didn,t realize a p. glide was worth so much i can get 2 or 3 real cheap.. now u will call me reeeeaaalllyy,,,stupid idid this work to the original all nos. matching engine intake, heads, block, were cast within days of each other,, one head same day as block... had 41000 on it . rings broke on no. 5 and 6 cyl. from preignition ,,builder said..,, thats why i bored it 0.30 i wonder what i could get for this engine if i put back stock cam ??? engine builder tried to get me to take it home and bring him another block ,, but i;m so damn hardheaded i get pissed off at my own self sometimes!!! might clone it into impala SS anyway..haven,t pulled converter yet,, but i,ll let u know how it turns out.. thanks..
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