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Topic Review (Newest First)
08-24-2008 09:12 AM
oldred
Quote:
Originally Posted by F&J
This board is of no use for a guy on a severe budget (poor) with a scruffy cheap daily driver or beginner rod, and is embarrased to drive it that way, and just wants a decent SS urethane paint job for a little over $100. You guys would laugh him off the board. Get off your almighty horses. I can do it, and it will hold up in salt, stored outdoors and never waxed. Don't tell me it can't.

end of rant....just tired of the "my way or no way" attitude around here.

If that is aimed at my post you are way off base. I was not ridiculing anyone for doing something on a budget and in fact have in several other posts discussed how to get by doing it cheaper, just doing it cheaper and using the right materials. I think I pointed out a couple of times about budget NOT being the reason to have to use lacquer over the better products and I still maintain that the economy 2k products are cheaper to use because they go so much farther. My whole point is that a person on a budget can get a better job AND save some money too by using the right material.
08-24-2008 08:57 AM
shine basically trying to make lacquer shoot like enamel by slowing it way down. i use to preferred enamel myself for solids. urethanes gives you both .

there are always different ways to go in painting. i only use 3 products so my failure rate goes way down . i only do one kind of job . so i don't change up much.
for a beginner lacquer id not really the best route to go . there are many pitfalls with lacquer and chances are it will go south in a year or so. a single stage urethane is by far going to produce the best results with the least effort and can be done on a budget. theres nothing wrong with building a car on a budget. i've done it all my life but using inferior products will spoil it for you sooner or later. i don't cut corners on things like brakes or paint. paint job is too hard to redo after the car is built.
08-24-2008 08:47 AM
baddbob
Quote:
Originally Posted by F&J
I agree that laquer primers can be used. If a person has a lot of problems with it, I would think they don't know how to use it.

I can't use epoxy primer because it makes me quite ill. It also stinks up a small garage so that you can't go back in for a day. I choose not to invest thousands in a real paint booth and spacesuit to be able to use a product that I don't like the way it sands. I just hate working with it.

I use the acrylic laquer high build version and it had really changed a lot for the better right before it went out of fashion IMO. It did not seem to shrink as much, and could be used in heavier coats compared to the earlier stuff.

I don't use laquer spot putty, but I do use 3M acrylic spot putty the way it was intended...like for MINOR flaws. I love the stuff. Why?, because with the 2 part putty, I cannot take my time with a portable light to chase down every little speck like I can with the acrylic.

One thing about the body/paint forum that I don't care for, is that alternative methods can't be discussed here. the board is controlled by a few people who ridicule other methods.

I still use all sorts of methods that would be ridiculed, but your opinions mean absolutely nothing to me. I just go out and look at the results of what I have done....and how it holds up over time in harsh enviornments.

You may think my post is nonsense, but somewhere in the threads here, it was said to a newcomer, that "if you don't spend at least $1500 to $2000 on materials, you can't expect a good job". The other one that got me was how a person got publicly ridiculed for "only" spending $500 to $600 on materials.

This board is of no use for a guy on a severe budget (poor) with a scruffy cheap daily driver or beginner rod, and is embarrased to drive it that way, and just wants a decent SS urethane paint job for a little over $100. You guys would laugh him off the board. Get off your almighty horses. I can do it, and it will hold up in salt, stored outdoors and never waxed. Don't tell me it can't.

end of rant....just tired of the "my way or no way" attitude around here.

I agree lacquer primers offer great ease of use and are very cheap, but there's no way in hell they compare to a quality epoxy or 2K in durability and corrosion resistance. I really wish I was wrong on this.
08-24-2008 08:38 AM
baddbob Yes, I also noticed retarder helped a lot. I think because the flow was better and the paint stayed open longer to get the solvents out.
08-24-2008 08:29 AM
shine wet and thin as in shot right not reduced , sorry. i used high grade thinner in primer and retarder in color. i never did buy into that 150% deal. but the problem is everyone thinks it easy because it flashes fast so they dont really have to have gun control. i've had some lacquer jobs last a long time if cared for. todays sun seems to be a little harder on them though. just about every repaint i see on forums and cars i take to redo have a checked lacquer job on them. most done at home and have a ton of primer and color. it's just not as easy as some seem to think. once a lacquer finish shatters thats it. it's gotta come off. and then theres the old painters tales of 40 coats of hand rubbed lacquer
08-24-2008 08:23 AM
F&J
Quote:
Originally Posted by Countilaw
I have used lacquer primer for years, as I have 2K primers.

If applied properly and sanded well, lacquer works fine. Or, it does for me. I use black lacquer primer for a guide coat as well. It dries very fast, sands easily and is cheap. About $40 a gallon. I haven't found any 2k that cheap.

Another thing, it does not set up in the cup. That's why I keep some in my syphon cup. It's easy to just grab the spray gun and apply a little primer.

With 2K, you have to use it all or waste it. It will set up in the cup. I just can't see pouring out good money because I mixed up a little to much 2K.

Shrinkage: If you lay the lacquer primer on really thick, you will get shrinkage. I usually spray on light coats, and sand in a few minutes. It fills small imperfections and blends the edges of plastic filler very well.

2k will shrink, it too has solvents in it. Down side, you have to wait several hours to sand 2k.

If any one can tell me where I can get 2k primer with it's activator and reducer with shipping and handling for less than $48.00 a gallon, I will surely be getting some.

Frank
I agree that laquer primers can be used. If a person has a lot of problems with it, I would think they don't know how to use it.

I can't use epoxy primer because it makes me quite ill. It also stinks up a small garage so that you can't go back in for a day. I choose not to invest thousands in a real paint booth and spacesuit to be able to use a product that I don't like the way it sands. I just hate working with it.

I use the acrylic laquer high build version and it had really changed a lot for the better right before it went out of fashion IMO. It did not seem to shrink as much, and could be used in heavier coats compared to the earlier stuff.

I don't use laquer spot putty, but I do use 3M acrylic spot putty the way it was intended...like for MINOR flaws. I love the stuff. Why?, because with the 2 part putty, I cannot take my time with a portable light to chase down every little speck like I can with the acrylic.

One thing about the body/paint forum that I don't care for, is that alternative methods can't be discussed here. the board is controlled by a few people who ridicule other methods.

I still use all sorts of methods that would be ridiculed, but your opinions mean absolutely nothing to me. I just go out and look at the results of what I have done....and how it holds up over time in harsh enviornments.

You may think my post is nonsense, but somewhere in the threads here, it was said to a newcomer, that "if you don't spend at least $1500 to $2000 on materials, you can't expect a good job". The other one that got me was how a person got publicly ridiculed for "only" spending $500 to $600 on materials.

This board is of no use for a guy on a severe budget (poor) with a scruffy cheap daily driver or beginner rod, and is embarrased to drive it that way, and just wants a decent SS urethane paint job for a little over $100. You guys would laugh him off the board. Get off your almighty horses. I can do it, and it will hold up in salt, stored outdoors and never waxed. Don't tell me it can't.

end of rant....just tired of the "my way or no way" attitude around here.
08-24-2008 08:17 AM
baddbob
Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
i have been a painter for 40 years. i dont do it as a hobby. lacquer is one of the hardest paints to use properly. it is also misused by most people who use it. people use it because they cant paint and think it wont run or sag so it must be easier. wrong. it is to be applied wet and thin. just about every home job done in lacquer will have a life of about a year. then it will check and have to be removed. any solvent will soak into and lift it including gas.

just for the record if you have to sand and buff lacquer you did it wrong.
Shine, the best lasting lacquer job I did was a purple candy job that got shot all in one day with the clear going on unreduced, wet and thick-totally opposite of what you're claiming. It held up for quite a few years and spent a few of those years in the Nevada sun uncovered. Many years ago an old timer told me the two most common mistake people make when shooting lacquer is over reducing and dryspraying, he claimed if the paint was over reduced that the paint lost some of the resin during evaporation. I have no idea if his claim is accurate but that candy job sure seemed to confirm he may be correct. I used lacquer for almost everything up untill about 1990.
Today I wouldn't use lacquer for anything.
08-24-2008 07:56 AM
flynbrian48 I would add that we used lacquer primers because that's all there was to use. The 2K primer/surfacers are better in every way. I'm a hobby painter, I do a couple of cars a year, and while it's hard to keep up with new chemistry, my results are far better, last far longer than the way I did things 20 years ago.

Materials DO cost more (it cost almost 800 to paint my '62 Impala) but I know that 10 years from now the car should look as good as it does right now. It sure wouldn't if it were painted with lacquer primers and acrylic enamel, my old favorites.
08-24-2008 07:17 AM
oldred Shine I don't think he was asking about using lacquer paint he is wanting to use lacquer primer.


Lacquer primer is a disaster in the making so if anyone wants to believe it wont shrink and ruin your paint go ahead and use it find out the hard way. The problems associated with using lacquer primer are well known and to insist it will not shrink anymore after a few minutes drying time is just simply ridiculous. Also buying $40 a gallon primer says volumes about the quality of a persons work and you can believe it or not but the cheaper 2k primers will cost less to use because that lacquer junk takes 2 to 3 times as much to do the same job!
08-24-2008 06:52 AM
shine i have been a painter for 40 years. i dont do it as a hobby. lacquer is one of the hardest paints to use properly. it is also misused by most people who use it. people use it because they cant paint and think it wont run or sag so it must be easier. wrong. it is to be applied wet and thin. just about every home job done in lacquer will have a life of about a year. then it will check and have to be removed. any solvent will soak into and lift it including gas.

just for the record if you have to sand and buff lacquer you did it wrong.
08-23-2008 11:19 PM
Countilaw I have used lacquer primer for years, as I have 2K primers.

If applied properly and sanded well, lacquer works fine. Or, it does for me. I use black lacquer primer for a guide coat as well. It dries very fast, sands easily and is cheap. About $40 a gallon. I haven't found any 2k that cheap.

Another thing, it does not set up in the cup. That's why I keep some in my syphon cup. It's easy to just grab the spray gun and apply a little primer.

With 2K, you have to use it all or waste it. It will set up in the cup. I just can't see pouring out good money because I mixed up a little to much 2K.

Shrinkage: If you lay the lacquer primer on really thick, you will get shrinkage. I usually spray on light coats, and sand in a few minutes. It fills small imperfections and blends the edges of plastic filler very well.

2k will shrink, it too has solvents in it. Down side, you have to wait several hours to sand 2k.

If any one can tell me where I can get 2k primer with it's activator and reducer with shipping and handling for less than $48.00 a gallon, I will surely be getting some.

Frank
08-23-2008 09:50 PM
Rambo_The_Dog I learned bodywork and painting starting back in 1980.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with lacquer based products - unless you're flat layzeeee doing bodywork.

If done correctly there is no more shrinkage than any catalyzed products I've seen. It has more to do with the quality of your bodywork and how far grit-wise you take the filler work out before you start priming.

Catalyzed filler primers have made slap hazard filler work the norm these days IMO

With the extraordinary costs and hazards of spraying modern catalyzed substrates and surfacers, it's no wonder laquer based products are making a resurgence, especially among home builders.

The final thing I'll say about lacquer - it's the only choice for many older cars if you really want a factory type finish or something that doesn't look like plastic.
08-23-2008 08:31 PM
1930u Lacquer products used to be a flat rate bodyman's best friend because you could turn the work out quickly. Back in my younger days I used to run a service shop. I would say that 9 out of 10 lacquer jobs always came back for something...checking, cracking, shrinking or blushing. Even the cars I did myself usually looked bad after 4 or 5 years. JMO most anything today is better than lacquer, even a spray can of enamel.
08-23-2008 10:48 AM
oldred I don't usually have much to say about paint unless I see someone about to make the same mistakes I once did and of the things I needed to learn about that was causing my problems lacquer probably topped the list! I just could not understand why after a few weeks or so I could still see sand scratches if the light was just right and sometimes they were apparent at anytime. I had already figured out that lacquer could not be applied heavy otherwise sandscratchs showing in the paint and seeing the edge of a repair after painting was almost inevitable but switching to 2 part epoxy and urethane primers eliminated these problems. Even if the lacquer did not shrink, which it WILL, if I understand this right the lacquer thinner can cause most surfaces to absorb solvents causing them to swell slightly, shrinking back long after the finish paint has been applied. Lacquer caused me many problems that simply went away with the switch to the 2k primers and as I said before if a person is really tied to a tight budget then the economy 2k is cheaper to use and far better so using lacquer makes zero sense. These problems with scratches showing, etc are not glaring flaws that standout like heavy sandscratches (not usually anyway but sometimes they are!) that were not properly finished but they are quite apparent to most people although I suppose they may be acceptable to others so I guess it just depends on how much pride a person takes in their work. Lacquer primer is junk and it's faults are well known, it will ruin otherwise nice paintwork and with the materials available today it just simply makes no sense to use it!
08-23-2008 10:16 AM
matt167 I got a basic enamel based primer from NAPA ( Martin senour crossfire ) for somthing like $40 per gallon.. it is a 1k
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