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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-21-2012 12:00 AM
inkfreak1976 up date,
started to color sand, its going well and sanding easy. im nocking it down with 400p and finishing with 600p. im getting it really smooth like glass.
but im needing some advise, im spraying a black race stripe on this thing and just for the stripe i want it to be a flat black. i got a quart of flat clear coat.
but im not wanting to color sand it because i dont want it to be shiny. i want it to remain flat. but i really dont want a tape line that can be felt. if any one has any idea of what im looking to do or has worked with omni flat clear coat, and knows how to do this please give me a heads up.
today ill be mounting doors and wet sanding the sides. and getting ready to lay down the stripe and if any one has any good advise on how to center stripes let me know. usaly it take several times for me to get it right so if theres any good easy advise ill take it. basicly im not sure where to measure from, or do i just pick a body line and and go with it. i know how to tape it off just need help centering it .
03-20-2012 08:25 PM
swvalcon Even with a house of kolor paint I would still use Berrry's Spi clear on it. I haven't used any House of Kolor paint for years. Use to use some back in the early to mid 70's and went down to south mineapolis and bought it right from Kos himself. He had a little custom shop just off lake st. before he went big time.
03-19-2012 12:54 PM
inkfreak1976
Quote:
Originally Posted by swvalcon
Try the spi universal clear or his production clear next time. Probably not any more than what your paying for your omni or other cheap clears you will never go back to them again.
this will probly be the last full paint job thatll ever use omni products on, maybe some small panel repair or some one that dont have the money for decent paint.
i think ill go with house of kolor paints next time, ive never had a problem like this with there products. there comperable with ppg's high quility products. and hok gives you the options on the tech sheets, and has a tech hot line to help with problems, that you can literaly get answers with in 20 mins. i used to hate hok untill i got used to them and after this i think itll be worth the extra money to go back.
03-19-2012 06:17 AM
swvalcon Try the spi universal clear or his production clear next time. Probably not any more than what your paying for your omni or other cheap clears you will never go back to them again.
03-19-2012 05:22 AM
Donnie Smith
Quote:
Originally Posted by inkfreak1976
it well all i can guess is that it was the gun or the product ive sprayed many cars with the same settings, just not that spacific gun. and that epoxy just baffeld the hell outa me and the best advise ive gotten was that it needed to be reduced more because the first time i sprayed it this year outa the same batch came out like snot and i had to do some fancy gun work to get it smooth. no sanding. and the 2k urethane cane out smooth as glass two coats and smooth as glass, the base coat came out smooth as glass. so we cant say that its the painter no runs nice even wet coats. the orange peal is noting its got to be wet sanded grapix applied and and then another four of clear, this time ill reduce the clear a bit and see how it comes out but im sure itll be smooth it was just a little thick and i thought origanaly that it should be reduced but i stuck with the tech sheet next time ill go with my gut. and eather way im wet sanding down to 4000p anyhow so if it does orange peal again its not like itll ever be seen like that any how. i always remember even the best painters that use 800 dollar guns and the best products, get runs, orange peal, solovent pops, lifting, etc. no ones perfect. and everything in life is a learning experiance even if youve done it a million times.
You've got that right! I've got a saying I tell my students when something does not go right and they are discouraged. You show me a painter that has never had a run and I will show you a lier...lol

Anyway, no one is perfect, I was just trying to help you troubleshoot the problem by some of the most common issues I've seen, but you are right, no one is perfect and everything can be fixed.

Our favorite spray gun is Iwata Supernova, which is more expensive. However, we also use Sharpe Finex FX 3000 and have good results with that gun too. It is under $200. So you are right, you don't have to have the most expensive gun.

It seems like we had more problems with some of the Omni clear coats when clearing a complete. The European clear coat works well for completes and is the only clear coat I really like in the Shopline line of products that I have found. We do not reduce this clear and it comes out fine. However, I think we have reduced some of the other Omni or Shopline clears to help them lay down better.

Something else to think about is another brand. I do not like the base coats, but Martin Senior overall clear lays down well. Their base coats do not seem to match as well. However if it is a complete, then you should be fine. Martin Senior from NAPA, Shrewin Willimas, or Acme are the same product labeled different. I am not sure how this line of paint compares in price to Omni.

Good luck with your project. It sounds like you have a good idea of what to do so I'm sure it will be fine. Donnie
03-18-2012 08:21 PM
inkfreak1976
Quote:
Originally Posted by 41 kustom
The same thing happened to me. I not a painter either but gave it a try. It came out just like you said. With me it was all gun set up. I had to wet sand the entire car and had a friend come and show me as he painted. he ran a lot difference in pressure than I did. It came out great. Omni or shop line may not be the best but it ain't bad. Since then I done more painting and it has come out just fine. Sounds like it worked out in the end. good luck. Jan.
it well all i can guess is that it was the gun or the product ive sprayed many cars with the same settings, just not that spacific gun. and that epoxy just baffeld the hell outa me and the best advise ive gotten was that it needed to be reduced more because the first time i sprayed it this year outa the same batch came out like snot and i had to do some fancy gun work to get it smooth. no sanding. and the 2k urethane cane out smooth as glass two coats and smooth as glass, the base coat came out smooth as glass. so we cant say that its the painter no runs nice even wet coats. the orange peal is noting its got to be wet sanded grapix applied and and then another four of clear, this time ill reduce the clear a bit and see how it comes out but im sure itll be smooth it was just a little thick and i thought origanaly that it should be reduced but i stuck with the tech sheet next time ill go with my gut. and eather way im wet sanding down to 4000p anyhow so if it does orange peal again its not like itll ever be seen like that any how. i always remember even the best painters that use 800 dollar guns and the best products, get runs, orange peal, solovent pops, lifting, etc. no ones perfect. and everything in life is a learning experiance even if youve done it a million times.
03-18-2012 07:45 PM
shine keep in mind you need a lot of flow for today's guns. i run 125 at the wall .
03-18-2012 02:28 PM
41 kustom
Omni

The same thing happened to me. I not a painter either but gave it a try. It came out just like you said. With me it was all gun set up. I had to wet sand the entire car and had a friend come and show me as he painted. he ran a lot difference in pressure than I did. It came out great. Omni or shop line may not be the best but it ain't bad. Since then I done more painting and it has come out just fine. Sounds like it worked out in the end. good luck. Jan.
03-18-2012 02:14 PM
Donnie Smith Here is the TDS for the ShopLine http://*********************.pdf

We have used a 1.4 and added 10% acetone and it went on without any problems. The dry dust you mentioned could have been due to being too far away or too much air pressure. This causing a dry overspray to land on top of the surface. It may have needed to be applied wetter. Also if it was real hot, this could be a problem too. I have never tried reducing it 50% so I am not sure how that would spray.

Clear coat used to be much easier to spray. To stay compliant with EPA the clears are higher solids. This means less solvents which it does not flow as well as the older clears. Most brands have been moving this direction.

The first thing that comes to mind when you say you had heavy orange peel with the clear is too low air pressure. If the pressure is too low, it will not atomize the clear coat into small enough droplets. This produces paint drops that are too big and will not flow out properly.

Another thing to consider is if you had the correct catalyst. Be sure to have overall for a complete.

Orange peel can be sanded and buffed out. This take work and time, but will remove orange peel or any dirt.

The only clear coat I use in Shop Line is 6700. Here is the TDS http://www.********************f

This is a European clear that seems to be the best clear Shop line has. I am not sure what the Omni number is to this or if they have it. You may ask your jobber about it the next time you buy clear. We use this clear or 2021 from PPG. We've had good results with these clear coats.

What clear and catalyst did you use?
03-18-2012 11:55 AM
inkfreak1976
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnie Smith
Many epoxy primers have an induction time. This is the time the two products need to set while the chemicals (epoxy and catalyst) needs to set in order to mix properly. Omni and Shopline are the same product labeled different. I think platinum PPG distributors sell Shopline and if they are not a platinum they sell Omni. That is what I have been told anyway. However, I would allow the Omni epoxy set for 15 to 20 minutes before using.

The mixing ratio is 2:1 (2 parts epoxy 1 part catalyst) I have added up to 10% acetone when using it as a sealer to help the epoxy flow out better.

1. Once mixed, allow it to set 15 - 20 minutes. (induction time)
2. Apply a medium wet coat (1 coat should work as a sealer, but you can apply up to 2 coats. If you do, allow 15 to 20 minutes between coats.)
3. Allow the epoxy to dry at least 30 minutes, but no longer than 72 hours (3 days) before applying base coat. If you wait longer than 72 hours, the surface must be lightly scuffed before applying base coat.

I would not apply more than 2 coats. Applying too much may not allow the solvents to escape properly, which could lead to problems.

If using as a sealer, I would use a 1.4 spray gun using around 20 to 25 psi at the gun. This may vary depending on the gun you are using. If it is not a HVLP, it is going to require more 45 to 50 psi at the gun.

Here are two videos about mixing and spraying epoxy primer. It is not being used as a sealer in this video, but goes through the mixing steps.

I hope this helps and good luck with your project.

Mixing Epoxy


Spraying Epoxy


If you are looking for additional auto body and paint training, then check out what I have available for you. http://www.CollisionBlast.com/AutoBodyGuides
hello donny i did everything that the tech sheet required, waited the induction time, and mixed it correctly. i had spoken to a tech at the manufacterer at ppg, the tech said that the tech sheet should have been changed for the amount of reducer, to spray it as a sealer. he recomended up to 50 % reducer, depending on what gun and the way the individual sprays.
i also was useing a gun that i was not used to spraying with, because i didnt want to run epoxy threw my base clear gun, and my primer gun only has a 1.8 tip so i got a cheep gun with a 1.4 to do rhis with.
i sprayed base and clear yesterday and base came out really nice and the clear came out i bit orange pealed. but there was no reducer added to the clear. wich seemed odd to me because every other clear coat that i ever sprayed had reducer added to it. the tech sheets on omni products are highly in accurate and do not give the proper info to make the product useable to everyone. ive sprayed many paints and dont remember any line of products being this diffacult to work with.
03-18-2012 07:45 AM
Donnie Smith
Quote:
Originally Posted by inkfreak1976
i sprayed omni epoxy coat as a sealer on advise of my jobber paint supply, I think it was the gun that i was useing god i hope so cause after i was done it went in the trash. seeing that i had no problems with my finish line guns doing the same thing nice even wet coats no tiger striping.
it mixed 1;1;10% 1 part epoxy, 1 part hardner, and a little over 10% urithane reducer.
problem is when the compressor was at full pressure it sprayed great inlet pressure at about 45-50 lbs with a 1.4 tip, trigger turned all the way in then backed out 4-5 turns test spray and fan was perfect, after i started spraying it started to come out a little dry like 30 sec after i was spraying. to compensate i put in a splash more reducerr mixed and cleaned gun and reset gun = perfect spray.
30 sec after starting again same thing. i did wait the 15 min induction period. so figureing that that was the best i was gonna get i sprayed 3 very slow moveing oats trying to get it as wet as possible.
i let it dry and plan on spraying base clear tommarow, about 3 hours later after spraying i checked out my work and litely tested the finish. there was a powder like resadue comeing off on to my hand.
my question is what do i do now do i just clean with wax and grease remover and spray base clear, or do i scuff then clean. then paint any help would be great ive just never seen this before.
Many epoxy primers have an induction time. This is the time the two products need to set while the chemicals (epoxy and catalyst) needs to set in order to mix properly. Omni and Shopline are the same product labeled different. I think platinum PPG distributors sell Shopline and if they are not a platinum they sell Omni. That is what I have been told anyway. However, I would allow the Omni epoxy set for 15 to 20 minutes before using.

The mixing ratio is 2:1 (2 parts epoxy 1 part catalyst) I have added up to 10% acetone when using it as a sealer to help the epoxy flow out better.

1. Once mixed, allow it to set 15 - 20 minutes. (induction time)
2. Apply a medium wet coat (1 coat should work as a sealer, but you can apply up to 2 coats. If you do, allow 15 to 20 minutes between coats.)
3. Allow the epoxy to dry at least 30 minutes, but no longer than 72 hours (3 days) before applying base coat. If you wait longer than 72 hours, the surface must be lightly scuffed before applying base coat.

I would not apply more than 2 coats. Applying too much may not allow the solvents to escape properly, which could lead to problems.

If using as a sealer, I would use a 1.4 spray gun using around 20 to 25 psi at the gun. This may vary depending on the gun you are using. If it is not a HVLP, it is going to require more 45 to 50 psi at the gun.

Here are two videos about mixing and spraying epoxy primer. It is not being used as a sealer in this video, but goes through the mixing steps.

I hope this helps and good luck with your project.

Mixing Epoxy


Spraying Epoxy


If you are looking for additional auto body and paint training, then check out what I have available for you. http://***************/AutoBodyGuides
03-17-2012 09:20 PM
inkfreak1976 when i talked to the ppg tech he stated that even after a 72 hr period that it would have to be reapplied or scuffed/ sanded. since it was right on the edge of 72 hrs since the last coat today, yesterday i wet sanded with 600 grit it came out really nice and was easy to do, today i cleaned and prepped the car for base and clear.
its a light baby blue no metallic , the name of the color is grabber blue, i layed down two heavy coats of base waiting 5 mins in between coats as per the tech sheet that im noticing aren't very reliable, waited 20 mins shoot to heavy wet coats of high solid clear with med hardener, the temp was close to 80 so it flashed a little faster than what i wanted. Te clear came out with a little orange peal but its getting wet sanded and taped for stripes so the peel will come out. after the stripe is painted another 4 coats will be applied and this time im going to reduce it as per recommendation of a good Friend of mine that has 20 plus years of body work experience. he couldn't believe that they didn't put that as a option on the tech sheet. after that it will be wet sanded down to 4000p the buffed and sanded, i case you might be thinking wow that's a lot of clear.
03-17-2012 02:24 PM
mitmaks is the base coat metallic or solid color? If its solid color I'd wetsand car with 600 and then just go with base.
03-17-2012 03:16 AM
HVAC Phil
Quote:
Originally Posted by inkfreak1976
ok you guys are right it is 2;1 i posted it wrong, i checked my paint mixing cup and i did mix it orrectly because i always mark with a sharpie marker. i called my jobber and they had the ppg tech contact me, well they tryed to blame everything on me of coarse because im not a body shop, and basicly the jobber told me the the wrong percentage of reducer. its from 10- 50 percent depending on tip size. with running a 1.4 tip it should of been a 50% ruducer. basicly what i had to do is wet sand with 600 they recomend a 2nd coat of epoxy but i still have my doubts of the product. so after the wet sanding i washed and rinsed well dryed , now im leaveing it to cure for another day. and off to base and clear. but i do think that its pretty bad to have a company try and save face more than takeing the blame for in accurate tech sheets. and i also had a good freind thats been in the auto body feild for 20 years say that it coulda been the catalist but theres no real way to say. so i hope that this might help some one in the future with this same problem. thanks for the replies and the help
Omni epoxy requires another coat if out of a 3 day window, so if 3 days have passed, you MUST apply another coat. Stuff sands lovely doesn't it? Nice and gummy on the sandpaper. Use SPI epoxy next time, you will see the OMNI sucks in comparison.
03-17-2012 01:02 AM
inkfreak1976
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitmaks
Possibly had too much air and you pretty much blasted it on. I'm not sure how long you've been spraying but every product that I spray is a little bit different and I have to make adjustments. I've been painting for many years too and do it on daily basis.
When spraying something as big as a car or even just a single body panel make necessary adjustments to the gun and to a spray out on the piece of cardboard/scrap, don't just go shooting car and make adjustments on the car.
i shot on a tester paper that i had taped to the wall, pretty much everytime i started to have problems, i would make the adjustments if necassary. but that got to be every 20 sec. and i knew that if i didnt get going on it i was going to lose my wet on wet, so i did the first coat the best i could. basicly adjusting my speed to get as wet of a coat as possible. i decided to do a second coat because it came out tiger striped as all hell and i knew i couldnt leave it like that so i knocked down my pressure 20 lbs did a test and it sprayed like a dream on the test paper. so i thought that i was good, and im not talking a couple trigger pulls i lined a good part of my wall with 18 inch paper and it shot awesome perfect fan perfect material application. and did several passes. oh and at that time i also splashed in some extra reducer and mixed strained, and cleaned gun before second coat and test. it was good so i started on the car and the same crap happened not 30 sec later so i did the same thing slowed my speed and tried to get the wettest coat i could, still tiger striped after the second coat and following proper flash times. i decided to do a cross pattern to try and blend the stripes. it filled in the stripes , but did the same thing. so i stopped cleaned up and let it cure over night. the plan was to do base and clear the same day but the way it sprayed i didn't want to risk the base and clear until i knew what the out come was going to be thanks god for gut instincts.
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