|12-04-2012 08:42 AM|
We both used names in the business to prove our point.That in these forums is inappropriate.The advise we both prove should be based on trust of what we both know and not use names.
Dirty hands experience for me started way back as a engine tester/dyno rm tech working at the Chevy engine plant in Tonn,NY under the UAW 774.I started a learning curve under the supervision of Frank Leuendowski and Gorgie Shears.Before that under the guidance of a world war II motor pool mechanic Paul Weaver.At 65 yrs old I have spend my entire life as a study in dirty hands.I have been involved in a partnership of a very successful professional race operation of over 40yrs where 20yrs of it was in 9.90 racing winning a national event and currently a TAD with nitrous that ran in the 1/8 4.56@150.So your off base in your comments.We have been involved as a business for the whole time in the partnership in sales of overstock and recondition high performance parts where it was a tradition for three yrs to have dinner with the industry leaders because of our purchases we made.
Sir as always there is two sides to a story.That has been the case about long rod vs short rods since Smoky.So moving forward given our backgrounds it should be enough when we say it is like this.Even if we don't agree about a topic,that is why forums like this one works.
I don't think in this whole exchange at anytime I disrespected you.And Richard is a friend.(Techinspector 1) who I have know for awhile.I certainly respect his knowledge that time and again he has proven in posts on two forums.But I do disagree with him from time to time.
I am going to wrap up my posts on this topic like this.We all know and believe to stroke a engine adds to it's power output.Right??. Then to add to the length of that stroke with longer rods at the very least,a mechanical lever advantage should be a given. Really a simplistic answer??. Is it more complicated than that??. Yes it is.But that debate is for another thread sometime later.
To the O/P of this thread.I sincerely apologize how this got out of hand.
|12-03-2012 11:45 PM|
This discussion of long rods vs short has gone on for yrs.And will go on long after we stop talking about it.
I done with it.
|12-03-2012 11:37 PM|
Ron is posing that other side of the discussion.Just because it's Ron doesn't mean he is right.Don't exclude all the references I posted that believe a long rod is worth while.And then I am telling you it is.
We needed to swap out a 5.7 engine for a spare identical short block 6" rod.Actually used the same cam.That 6" rod engine would put on a fender consistently at the top end.Sensitive butt dyno,it just felt faster.We knew John at LPE and I am very sure he believed the worth of long rods.
|12-03-2012 02:47 PM|
What Howards explained to me was they are tired of complaints about thrust side piston wear on there 3.75 stroke 5.7 rod cranks and have stopped selling the cranks by themselves because of that.
And I do not subscribe to the 6" rod use for the street because of the ring spacers.That s why I was very happy to get the last Howards 5.7 rod crank you see in the picture.
|12-03-2012 01:23 PM|
I'll weigh in here with some thoughts....
A 400 motor will be fine on the drag strip without steam holes being drilled in the heads. On the street, where the motor will be run south of 3,000 rpm's and idle for periods of time, it is likely to create hot spots and spit out the head gasket. Above 2,500/3,000 rpm's, there is enough turbulence created in the water jackets that steam pockets cannot form.
Hopefully, understanding the rules and using a modicum of common sense will allow a racer to pass tech with a front-mounted fuel cell. The idea is to get it inside body lines on a doorslammer and hopefully behind a chassis crossmember. Altereds and diggers need further protection. Here's the rule.....
"Tanks: When permitted by class regulations, fuel tanks located outside
body and/or frame must be enclosed in a steel tube frame constructed
of minimum 1 1/4-inch O.D. x .058 chromoly or .118 mild steel tubing.
All fuel tanks must be isolated from the driver’s compartment by a
firewall, completely sealed to prevent any fuel from entering the driver’s
compartment. All fuel tanks must have a pressure cap and be vented
outside of body. A positive-locking screw-on fuel tank cap is mandatory
on all open-bodied cars. Insulated fuel tanks prohibited. When used,
fuel cells must have a metal box protecting the part of the fuel cell that
is outside of body lines or trunk floor, excluding hose connection area
in rear. The metal box must be constructed of minimum .024 steel or
.032 aluminum. Nonmetallic fuel cells or tanks must be grounded to
This last part of the rule probably makes no sense to some of you who have not run cells, like how do you ground plastic, but what it refers to is grounding the metal ring at the fill hole of the cell. Use a piece of 10 ga wire and crimp connectors. Any frame crossmember that is forward of the cell will work in place of the tubing protection called for in the rule, even on an open car. Take a look at any digger. All Funny Cars have front-mounted cells too. We used to be tough on firewalls. Find a very dark place, position yourself so that you can see the firewall from inside the car and have a buddy shine a very strong light on the firewall from the engine compartment. Everywhere light can shine through is a place where fuel could pass through to the driver's compartment. If that fuel was on fire, well, you get the idea. Small holes can be filled by using a fender washer on each side of the firewall with a bolt and locking nut through the middle of the washers. Larger holes will need to be welded up with patches.
Whenever the question of rod length comes up, I always refer to the articles published by Ron Iskenderian, son of the famous camfather, Ed Iskenderian......
Please read Tech Tip 2005 here....
ISKY Racing Cams - Do It Right. Race with the Legend. Camshafts, Connecting Rods, Valve Springs, Lifters
|12-03-2012 12:46 PM|
Smokey Yunick,LPE,Howards,all aftermarket blocks,GM it's self all disagree with you on the long rod question.
I still,even through I have gotten older,have the ability to listen and learn.Some guys get hard of hearing and are tough to teach.Oh well.....................maybe there is something for them still living "back in the day".
|12-03-2012 12:31 PM|
[QUOTE=hcompton;1618056]Under hood tanks go in the front in same location as battery or coolant tank.
That's where things get questionable. The rule say's... "Tank must be mounted within the frame".
If it was mounted in the battery location that would "not be within the frame" and if the car took a hit in the front the fuel tank would be in for a good hit.
|12-02-2012 10:34 PM|
|1Gary||Still doing the dance avoiding the commitment I challenged you to make......|
|12-02-2012 02:24 PM|
That cert covers nation wide,not just in DC.
Still doing the dance avoiding the commitment I challenged you to make......
A lower flash point catches fire sooner/faster.If that wasn't the case,there would be no point in running 110 race gas.A higher flash point requires more heat like the case for kerosene.Diesel fuel has a higher flash point and what makes that work is in diesel engines the extreme high compression.So you have the flash points backwards.
|12-02-2012 06:07 AM|
|1Gary||For the record.Race gas's flash point is lower than pump gas.I am very sure about that being a dangerous goods specialist register in Washington,DC.|
|12-01-2012 11:32 PM|
|12-01-2012 06:47 PM|
|1Gary||But to establish a rock solid ref from this point moving forward,I believe with at 65 yrs old of a lifetime in a study in performance engines the 6" rods do have a positive effect.|
|12-01-2012 06:34 PM|
Well it's like a cliff being sold because everyone else jumps off it,refills under the hood tanks by hot headers needs to be with full fire suits only or else it's a adventure.I demand anyone advising their use posts they will go to the burn unit to visit anyone anywhere if something goes wrong.
Howards stop building 5.7 cranks where you could buy the crank by it's self mainly because the 5.7 rod creates too much rocking of the piston's thrust side and that creates excessive wear.I got the very last one is why I know.I bought it as a trade off because I don't like ring spacers that 6" rods need for the street.What all of us do is build things into a engine build that adds alittle bit and all those things adds up to a final output.The topic of long rods goes back to the days of Henry"Smokey"Yunick saying "you put in the longest damm rod you can find",followed by John Lingenfelter at LPE gradually over the yrs increase the rods they use in their engines,to GM Chevy it's self increasing the rod length in it's production engines.It is well documented the positive effect a 6" rod and greater than that has.It is also follow through by the aftermarket blocks being offered.
|11-30-2012 11:13 PM|
When we used a OEM 400 we would fill the block 1/2 way to help stabilize the bores and bore and hone using torque plates.Even then the bores sealing ability would result in a different leak down test everytime.And we where running them in a N/A 9.90 class.No nitrous.
That was yrs ago and the good 400 cores where getting harder to find. You say you have a 400.Well sonic check it even with only a .030 over bore to check it for a possible thin wall and mag it for cracks. With the cooling design of the 400's you have to have the deck checked too.They warped pretty easily. I know all this stuff from yrs of racing them and from I worked at the Chevy engine plant in Tonn,NY as a engine tester/dyno rm tech.
Now for the safety aspect.I am ticked off by people through their own reckless behavior force the sanctioning bodies to clamp down on safety equipment to the extent where guys are complaining it them trying to create sales for the companies who sell the safety equipment. It costs my racing operation a young fortune to upkeep that now.But I am all about safety and I do see say N.H.R.A.'s point of view that if they didn't take a stand,there would be certain guys that would use Craigslist equipment as so to speak show and tell prevention. But worthless junk.Things like fire suits that where unraveling and 5 point harnesses that where torn.
When it comes to nostalgic racing rules,I know little about that. I would guess they are alittle more relaxed. I do remember the gasser tanks up front and if you remember that,they where mounted to aluminum frames by two spring straps.The idea was in a crash the tank would come out of the mount,but the reality was the tank came out of it's mounting and then smash on the ground or was drag by it not breaking free of the fuel line still attached to it.Not good things happened because of that.
The production Vortec's really only have a 170cc intake runner and that isn't enough for a big inch 400 SBC.It needs in the range of 195 to 200,230 cc's.The Bowtie Vortecs have a raised runner and manifold that is a 200cc intake runner that is going to get you close to what you need.Remember a bigger SBC can accept a bigger cam more easily. You would think so,but Elgin and PBR will grind you a custom cam fairly inexpensively if you call them telling them what you have and where you want to go with it.Make very sure when they tell you to use a valve spring,that is the one you use.
So to sum it up:
400's are useable if handle in the right way
I am a believer in long rod tech
Safety first no matter what rules or what anyone tells you
Bowtie Vortec heads with steam holes drilled
Elgin or PBR cams
Use their recommendations for valve springs.
|11-30-2012 05:27 PM|
|bottlefed55gasser||I guess what I meant, is there a possible way to set up a old school fuel cell to work properly and safely.... Also f bird 88 on your vortec headed 400 what if u used the same combo but with ik200's? I like this form a lot more then my local one, on cc street scene everyone makes fun of gen 1 stuff there answer to any question is build a ls engine. Gee thanks dickheads lol. I've learned alot just through these past post.|
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