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Topic Review (Newest First)
02-23-2013 05:05 PM
69 widetrack I couldn't agree more. This is an area that the customer needs to be educated and to understand that safety is an issue...like your bumper brackets. Body Shops can complain all they want, it's the guy that's paying the freight with respect to policy costs that needs to let the Insurance Company know that they won't stand for it...but that's a bigger job than anybody has time for.

Yes paper thin bumper covers wrapped in saran wrap...I wonder what University graduate thought that was a good idea?

Ray
02-23-2013 04:55 PM
MARTINSR Well let's not start with the AM parts as being easily damaged, the OEM are just IG-NOR-ANT when it comes to this. They make a friggin textured plastic bumper that is as fragile as a darn potato chip and put it in a plastic bag! I had two from GM damaged this past week, $350 bumper put in horrible wrapping and damaged.

No the AM has it's place, it's nice they exist, to save a 10 year old car from the wrecker, that's great. But when they want you to use all aftermarket stuff on a one year old car, that is just nuts!

Brian
02-23-2013 03:58 PM
69 widetrack So really Brian...the only way the insurance company pays out a warranty claim is if the shop no longer exists. Otherwise the shop that did the original repair pays...The Insurance Company has their butt's covered.

The AM parts thing...I hope that they do have a class action suite filed again. Some AM parts are decent quality and I'm OK using them on a repair but, some of the parts are so inferior, they get dented taking them out of the box...and watch the staples in the box, it'll often rip a hole in that fender your trying to get out.

What gets me is that these Insurance Company's claim to raise rates because the higher cost of repair...How come Government Insurance has lower rates than Private, pays more to the shop for repair and still makes money. I know in Saskatchewan they have Government Insurance, it's called SGI and they are one of the biggest money making entities for the Provincial Government...that's after paying more for repairs with lower rates...go figure.

Ray
02-23-2013 03:28 PM
MARTINSR They will go after the other shop, because it is warrantied by them so I get that. And that is the whole point, the shop that is "direct" must have a lifetime warrantee to be a "direct" shop.

The whole AM parts thing, that is going to bite them in the butt, watch and see. Some of the parts are SERIOUSLY effecting the integrity of the safety devices designed into the car. I got some bumper brackets the other day for a Ford F150 the insurance company insisted on AM, they were two thirds as thick a metal at best. State Farm lost a big class action suit years ago over them and I really wonder what the ones who still push it have covering their butts? They have got to have something, something is different or they would be running from them. I don't know, but curious.

Brian

Brian
02-23-2013 03:17 PM
69 widetrack I do understand what your saying with regards to insurance company's...my experience has been that these life time warranties that they offer are rarely paid out and it has to be a glaring screw up on the body shop's behalf that would make an insurance company pay out. Most often the shop that did the substandard repair has to re-repair the vehicle at the body shops expense, not the insurance company. I know of one instance where a customer had a repair done, was out of town and the faulty repair caused the customer not to be able to drive his car...after a lot of screaming and yelling and back and forth, the insurance company allowed the customer to go to one of their "Direct Repair Shops" and had the car repaired properly. The insurance company promptly footed the bill and charged back the shop that did the repair originally.

As far as they don't get kick backs per say...a reduction in labor to me is a kick back...it just sounds a little more acceptable. That brings up another situation...what about the adjuster, tow truck driver or even the body shop themselves that do a similar thing. Adjuster's that get paid under the table for recommending shops...tow truck drivers that get paid under the table for taking a wreck to a certain compound or shop...the body shop that eliminates or reduces the deductable to get the job. In Canada, some provinces have Government Insurance...I wouldn't open a Body Shop in a Province with private insurance. The Government Insurance Provinces get between $15 and sometimes $20 more per flat rate hour, more for paint material per hour, more shop material per hour and there are no negotiated reductions in the hourly labor rate. Shops need to be certified in order to do work for the Insurance Company and training courses like ICAR etc. need to be kept up to date. The apprenticeship programs have students butts in the seats (not like some provinces with private insurance, why? Because the Body Shop gets paid more per hour and can pay their Techs an extra $7.50 or $10.00 per hour...that can be more than 20K a year for the good Tech). In a previous post I mentioned that a good painter gets on average $25 per hour flat rate...In provinces with Government Insurance, that same painter could get $35 per hour. Even if that painter only makes straight time he's paid over $70K a year and the painters that are fast and good...$100K is not out of the realm of possibility...a little on the rare side but I know of a few that get that pay cheque...and they earn it.

Used or aftermarket parts...again private insurance can do what they want....Government Insurance has semi annual meetings with their Body Shops to determine what is acceptable and what isn't along with hourly wage increases, shop safety requirements and staff training. The only thing that I think private insurance would do is require that staff be kept up to date with respect to training...they sure don't want to talk about hourly door rate increases, safety is pretty much regulated by the Government, the Insurance Company doesn't get involved and they demand that often the Body Shop install inferior parts.

Holy crap Brian...this forum is better than Jenny Craig...I think I just lost 5 pounds by getting all that off my chest...LOL

Ray
02-23-2013 02:08 PM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
I like your analogy of looking at what you do through the eyes of another professional. So true, the best accolade is the one coming from your peers. It's all about giving a damn about what you do...no matter the field, laziness doesn't cut it if your sweeping the shop floor or painting a car. I loose respect for the painter that gets pissed off when you offer advice, I know I was and am only to happy to get it when I need or needed it...that's how I learn and learned. The old guy that did it back in the day may not always be right but, he's worth a listen, just like the younger person that may have that revolutionary idea that can alter the way things are done. Especially with water born base coat coming on strong, a totally new method of painting and it brings a whole new challenge to tinting. It's going to be the new generation of painter's that sets themselves apart from the applicator with new ideas, a new way of looking at things. I try not to discount anyone's suggestions...you just never know when you might learn something.

Does the person that accepts the less than adequate paint or body work ever ask questions about the job that they paid for or that they inadvertently paid for through their insurance. The answer is yes...just last month, my neighbor had a front fender and bumper cover replaced...who did he go to for an opinion regarding the quality? He came to me, was it acceptable, not on my watch. Why did he take it to the shop he took it to? The insurance company virtually insisted that he take it there otherwise they couldn't warranty the job. I let my neighbor know that in no way does the insurance company warranty the work, the shop that did the work does and the reason the insurance company recommended that particular shop was because they get a kick back. I also let him know that because it's his car, he has the right to take it to whatever shop he wants, it's his car...that's why he pays insurance.

Ray
I have to tell you Ray, that insurance company may very well warranty that job! That is exactly one of the marketing techniques used by the insurance companies as of the last number of years. When you go to their "direct repair" shops (called all sort of things like "Preferred" or "Certified" and others) the insurance will give the repair a lifetime of ownership warranty! This is the language they use when speaking to the insured or claimant "If you our Preferred shop you will have a lifetime of ownership warranty on all work performed" insinuating that if they go somewhere else they won't. Our shop has a lifetime of ownership warranty on everything we do. So that is our sales pitch when they come in with an insurance company that we aren't a "direct" with, "They may tell you if you go to their shop you have a lifetime of ownership warranty, well we offer that as well and have been here for 34 years". It works pretty well. But not everyone will listen and they will go to these "direct" shops like sheep when they are told by their insurance company. Often these shops do a good job and like ours have the equipment and training required by the insurance company to maintain a high standard of repair. But on the same respect.........they may be pushed by that same insurance company to use substandard parts made in Taiwan and China. The insurance companies are speaking out of both sides of their mouth in this regard, and I see some big law suits with them loosing in court as one of the largest in American did a decade or so ago.
Anyway, they don't get "Kickbacks" per-se they have contracts with the shop for lower labor cost and discounts on parts, plus they have the control of pushing them to use the aftermarket parts or loose the account!

So, the insurance company warranties the job huh? Yep they sure do and so if you have your car fixed in California and move to Arizona you can go to a "direct" shop of your insurance company there and get something corrected, and the insurance company picks up the tab. We have repaired cars for people who had the car originally done at another local "direct" shop, and another shop in the area has repaired cars we have done where we couldn't make the customer happy. Be it real "warranty" long after the car was repaired or simply that the customer wasn't happy with the repair quality, it has went both ways with us and another local "direct" shop for this insurance company.

Like I said, the insurance companies play unbelievable games when it comes to these direct shops, I really would love to see the numbers, many don't add up for me. Like using these AM or used parts, they will push and push that you have to use these used and aftermarket parts. Though often these parts take longer to get (used that is) and when they come they are in bad condition, the AM ones often don't fit and are simply not useable. It needs to be documented that you tried and all along the insurance company is paying the rental car for the customer. I really would love to see the numbers as turn around time is one of the most important to keep cost down for the insurance company and profits up for the shop. Yet these games they play keep people in rental cars. We have seen people stay in rental cars for a month while the insurance company plays games with us. We have had two cars just recently that did this, if the insurance company would have repaired it as we said to begin with the car would have been long gone in a week or so. They would have saved about $550 in rental, that is more than the difference in parts prices they were trying to avoid.

Anyway, I could talk all day long on this stuff, very odd in my opinion but I can see where some bean counter finds that it saves $12 on every job and that gets him a big bonus.

Brian
02-23-2013 01:25 PM
69 widetrack I like your analogy of looking at what you do through the eyes of another professional. So true, the best accolade is the one coming from your peers. It's all about giving a damn about what you do...no matter the field, laziness doesn't cut it if your sweeping the shop floor or painting a car. I loose respect for the painter that gets pissed off when you offer advice, I know I was and am only to happy to get it when I need or needed it...that's how I learn and learned. The old guy that did it back in the day may not always be right but, he's worth a listen, just like the younger person that may have that revolutionary idea that can alter the way things are done. Especially with water born base coat coming on strong, a totally new method of painting and it brings a whole new challenge to tinting. It's going to be the new generation of painter's that sets themselves apart from the applicator with new ideas, a new way of looking at things. I try not to discount anyone's suggestions...you just never know when you might learn something.

Does the person that accepts the less than adequate paint or body work ever ask questions about the job that they paid for or that they inadvertently paid for through their insurance. The answer is yes...just last month, my neighbor had a front fender and bumper cover replaced...who did he go to for an opinion regarding the quality? He came to me, was it acceptable, not on my watch. Why did he take it to the shop he took it to? The insurance company virtually insisted that he take it there otherwise they couldn't warranty the job. I let my neighbor know that in no way does the insurance company warranty the work, the shop that did the work does and the reason the insurance company recommended that particular shop was because they get a kick back. I also let him know that because it's his car, he has the right to take it to whatever shop he wants, it's his car...that's why he pays insurance.

Ray
02-23-2013 12:53 PM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
I apologize to the OP...Again Brian, we seem to be high jacking the thread.

Ray
Yep we have, but I believe he has gotten what he needed so now we can run wild.

Brian
02-23-2013 12:50 PM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
Yes Brian...and try and find that guy that can match or make colors in a paint store. The guy that can is usually a painter on the higher end of the pay scale or is the rep that, as you mentioned, is only there to sell paint. Not many painters even know how to look at a a sprayed out color chip to determine if it matches...they look head on and say good to go when you need to look at the color chip at 45 degree angles (called the flip) to see if the metallic's lighten or darken the color when looking at the car from an angle, (not many people only look at a car head on, as the walk to the drivers door to get in it, they are looking at the color on an angle). Then if the painter is tinting a metallic color, which metallic toner does he choose...he needs to completely understand the tinting system in his shop....which metallic's are lighter on the flip, which are darker, the coarseness of the metallic, which red goes to the yellow side and which red goes to the blue side, black doesn't only darken a color, it muddies it up, white doesn't only lighten a color, it milks it out. On any give tinting system there are 4 or 5 red toners, at least 3 black toners (yes black) a multitude of whites, probably 8,9 or even 10 different metallic's, 15 or more pearls, some powder some liquid, let alone the reds, yellows, blues, violets, greens, tone controllers and so on. It used to be you could match a color off what it looked like on the stir stick...not any more, air pressure in metallic colors when spraying them will determine the lightness or darkness of the color...I'm reminded of code 22A (if I'm correct) an early to mid 90's GM light blue metallic, with Dupont having over 25 factory variants of the same color and to top it off, because of the fine metallic in the color, air pressure plays a vital role in getting the color right on. I've seen painters that increase or reduce air pressure (done it myself) to make the color match...tell me that isn't an art.

Your right Brian...this painter is Gold...what does he get paid...if working flat rate...the "good" painter would be $25 an hour, straight time, may be even less. This for the man that is the last line of defense on the average persons second largest investment in their life. What I find as insulting is that body man that has the skills and metal working capability to fix damn near anything, often they make less. Why, private insurance dictates how much they will pay, when they will pay and when you need to have the job done by. Try doing that with a piece of steak at your local supermarket.

However, I'm sure that no matter what trade, these examples are not uncommon, just the facts of life. WOW...my venting is done, I do feel better now...LOL

Ray
I will watch the painters hold the spray out card against the panel and shine the "color matching" "sun light" producing light on it! It blows me away, they are holding the spray out card with the left hand against the panel and holding the light with their right hand going back and forth changing the angle with the light about 10 degrees and this is how they match the color!



All this inside the shop when right outside the door is beautiful sunshine! I have told them that light is great when you have a rainy or overcast day, it's a lifesaver but when the sun is shining right outside why on earth use the fake sun? And tape or use a magnetic sprayout so you can stand back and look at the color! I don't get it, they act like this is more work, like it's more time, but being all ticked off if they have to repaint something. You could spend those extra few minutes color matching on thirty cars before you spent the time of re-doing one. And besides, a lot of cars leave with the a poor color match, just because when Mrs. Jones picked up her car and left they didn't refuse the color doesn't mean they don't hate it every time they look at it and simply didn't complain. At least not to you at the shop, they complain to their friends who then never come to your shop to have their cars fixed. I have always been the kinda guy that when producing a job be it body or paint, can another pro see what you did to the car, THAT is my question to myself. It's easy to pull the wool over Mrs. Jones who knows nothing "It's a plastic part, plastic takes the paint different" make that double But will I be pulling the wool over the eyes of her neighbor who IS a pro in the field?

A lot of people simply suck it up and drive their car off seeing stuff wrong, my job is make sure that never happens. That's how I see it anyway.

Brian
02-23-2013 12:37 PM
69 widetrack I apologize to the OP...Again Brian, we seem to be high jacking the thread.

Ray
02-23-2013 12:36 PM
69 widetrack Yes Brian...and try and find that guy that can match or make colors in a paint store. The guy that can is usually a painter on the higher end of the pay scale or is the rep that, as you mentioned, is only there to sell paint. Not many painters even know how to look at a a sprayed out color chip to determine if it matches...they look head on and say good to go when you need to look at the color chip at 45 degree angles (called the flip) to see if the metallic's lighten or darken the color when looking at the car from an angle, (not many people only look at a car head on, as the walk to the drivers door to get in it, they are looking at the color on an angle). Then if the painter is tinting a metallic color, which metallic toner does he choose...he needs to completely understand the tinting system in his shop....which metallic's are lighter on the flip, which are darker, the coarseness of the metallic, which red goes to the yellow side and which red goes to the blue side, black doesn't only darken a color, it muddies it up, white doesn't only lighten a color, it milks it out. On any give tinting system there are 4 or 5 red toners, at least 3 black toners (yes black) a multitude of whites, probably 8,9 or even 10 different metallic's, 15 or more pearls, some powder some liquid, let alone the reds, yellows, blues, violets, greens, tone controllers and so on. It used to be you could match a color off what it looked like on the stir stick...not any more, air pressure in metallic colors when spraying them will determine the lightness or darkness of the color...I'm reminded of code 22A (if I'm correct) an early to mid 90's GM light blue metallic, with Dupont having over 25 factory variants of the same color and to top it off, because of the fine metallic in the color, air pressure plays a vital role in getting the color right on. I've seen painters that increase or reduce air pressure (done it myself) to make the color match...tell me that isn't an art.

Your right Brian...this painter is Gold...what does he get paid...if working flat rate...the "good" painter would be $25 an hour, straight time, may be even less. This for the man that is the last line of defense on the average persons second largest investment in their life. What I find as insulting is that body man that has the skills and metal working capability to fix damn near anything, often they make less. Why, private insurance dictates how much they will pay, when they will pay and when you need to have the job done by. Try doing that with a piece of steak at your local supermarket.

However, I'm sure that no matter what trade, these examples are not uncommon, just the facts of life. WOW...my venting is done, I do feel better now...LOL

Ray
02-23-2013 11:43 AM
MARTINSR You are right on the money Ray, color matching is SOOOO going away. It's like the bodyman metal finishing, hell we don't even repair the fender anymore let along doing it without filler. So it just goes away, as does the color matching. The paint supplier has tried to provide more and more in that regard so "anyone" can paint because let's face it, in a collision shop color matching is without a doubt the defining step.

I am blown away at what the painters miss when it comes to matching, and won't listen to the old guy what the hell does he know, he isn't doing it right? This paint is so different from what he shot on horse and buggys.

That all being said, the paint manufacture with their tons of alternates they have provided a great starting point for the painter, problem is they very seldom do much more than shoot one they picked from the alternates. They just don't tint anymore in a lot of shops, they will get the paint rep out to help them on hard colors, you know the paint rep who is just trying to sell paint and doesn't know crap?

It is most certainly a lost "art" that use to be not art but simply the JOB. A painter matched colors on the cars, duh. And how about the fact that there were NO "alternates", you matched the friggin color. Sometimes MILES off, poor coverage (late 70's GM, holy cow they were like candies) you matched it.

A painter today who nails colors, he is GOLD baby.

Brian
02-23-2013 11:31 AM
69 widetrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman View Post
what you want to do is compare prices against the big name brands at your local paint suppliers ,Go with what is available...No sence getting your heart set on Dupont if you cant get it locally...also you'll most likely need to get it matched there at the store because the old lacquer codes need to be converted to the newer paints ,a lot of the old codes are not available and will need to be matched to what you have...Chances are the old code wont be available so you'll need an experianced man behind the counter that can use the spectrum computer and custom mix it ....not everyone behind the counter can do this but it can be done if they have the experiance dont take "not available" or "it cant be done" as an excuse,because it can, just not there... find somewhere that will do it...
Start with the yellow pages "bodyshop supplies" to find whats available near you. let us know what brands you can get and we'll go from there....
Oh , and dont trust anything they say they'll say you need this ,this and this and this is just as good ,dont believe it they are there to sell you stuff......We are not
Mike, good post, with valuable information. Your so right when it comes to choosing a paint supplier. As I've said in many posts, "paint is paint", they all work but, when comparing paint, compare apples to apples. By that I mean if your comparing paint, compare top of the line products (forget about the value lines, especially in base coat). When you compare products, take into consideration what your supplier will do for you, (I started a thread on exactly this point). Most paint suppliers won't take the time to get you the exact color you want...if the code doesn't come up as a color available in base coat, they say it's not available or they ask for a sample and use the "computerized camera" to get a code. From experience, I will tell you that no matter what brand you chose the camera WON'T give you a blendable match over 95% of the time, especially in metallic colors. Solid colors the "camera" will get you in the ball park but I wouldn't under any circumstances accept the code the computer spits out. This is where your concerned paint supplier comes in. If they have knowledgeable people in the store, they can build you a color...and that's a pretty big if. When choosing a metallic color and a factory code is not available, use their chip books or their color library's (all the majors have them in some form or another)...find something close and if you have the right paint supplier, they will tint it from there. If tinting is required, ask the fellow tinting to keep track of what toners he adds to the existing formula so that if you ever need more paint you have your own code to go to. Tinting is becoming a rare art and one of the aspects of a painter versus and applicator. I remember shops where color match was a daily issue and I had to go and tint colors for the shop...I also remember the shops where I never got a call regarding colors not matching...the painter knew what he was doing and tinted the color to match the car, just like some paint suppliers will go up and above to get you the color you need...very rare, but they are out there and they are the suppliers that are thriving. If they go that extra mile for you to get you the right color, they are going to go that extra mile to give you the right information concerning what ever else you need to get the best paint job possible.

On my profile I wrote three words..."faith, respect and trust"...let me explain why...If I ask you to do something, the only reason I will ask you is because I have the "faith" in you that you can and will do it. When you do it, I will "respect" you...when you do it often enough, I will "trust" you. So Mike, again, so true, don't blindly go and "trust" without making a person earn it...and in this case start trusting when they can deliver on what they say they can. Before you spend your hard earned cash and buy whatever the guy behind the counter suggest, check with us...we, in all probability, will save you money. I hope we don't...that means you have the right supplier and don't be afraid if his paint costs a bit more, with the right supplier you will save money in the long run.

Excellent post Mike.

Ray
02-23-2013 09:26 AM
deadbodyman what you want to do is compare prices against the big name brands at your local paint suppliers ,Go with what is available...No sence getting your heart set on Dupont if you cant get it locally...also you'll most likely need to get it matched there at the store because the old lacquer codes need to be converted to the newer paints ,a lot of the old codes are not available and will need to be matched to what you have...Chances are the old code wont be available so you'll need an experianced man behind the counter that can use the spectrum computer and custom mix it ....not everyone behind the counter can do this but it can be done if they have the experiance dont take "not available" or "it cant be done" as an excuse,because it can, just not there... find somewhere that will do it...
Start with the yellow pages "bodyshop supplies" to find whats available near you. let us know what brands you can get and we'll go from there....
Oh , and dont trust anything they say they'll say you need this ,this and this and this is just as good ,dont believe it they are there to sell you stuff......We are not
02-19-2013 04:53 PM
69 widetrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
I am totally with you Ray on all manufacturers being close to the same in coverage. However, the value lines like Omni over Deltron, both PPG can be miles apart in coverage where Omni could need 5 or 6 coats to Deltrons 3 to cover. That is what I was referring to.

Brian
You are so right Brian...the value lines in the long run (and in my opinion) have little value. That's why when it comes to PPG I recommended Deltron, if I would recommend Dupont I'd suggest Chroma Premiere over Nason. Your also right about coverage being 5 or 6 coats versus 3...let alone metallic control. Metallic control in the "value" brands is virtually non existent and from experience I know how hard it is to fight blotchy, stripey base coat. So Brian, we do agree...(P.S. I was writing my post while you posted so I had no idea you had even posted just before I did).

We're on the same page Brian...I don't think I would ever recommend Omni or Nason with respect to what the OP is doing.

Ray
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