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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-13-2013 11:38 AM
tech69 pretty much what I've been saying all along. forget the spec and post up a pic so we can all argue over the method of repair already.

working on a 55 chevy and the guy says he wants 'factory' gaps without noticing we had already made them pretty good all around already. So I pointed to a door to quarter gap and asked him how crooked he wanted that one.

I still wonder if all those a pillars that are always leaving too small of a gap to the upper portion of the door on those 55's are actually factory or caused by the cowl being pushed back. I still haven't found any evidence that suggests it's from an accident, but I try to get a good look everytime before I porto it out a tad.
04-13-2013 09:49 AM
69 widetrack I agree Brian, the only time i'd remove and replace factory panels would be if the vehicle was hit hard enough that repairing the factory panel wouldn't be feasible or serious rust issues. The wrinkles above the tail lights, well I'm not sure if that would fly today...the dealerships would point that out in a hurry. I like what you said...if your going to build a show car, forget what they did at the factory, do it right.

Pictures in this case would help out a lot, to this point we don't know exactly what we're dealing with.

Ray
04-13-2013 09:39 AM
69 widetrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
How about the wrinkles in the metal over the tail lamp! And the painted screws and latches! LOLOL, I am sorry I just can't do a 100 point show car. When I had my Vette I was looking to build it 100 point. I was buying the Corvette magazines and in there was a car with bare metal half shafts with just the right amount of rust on them, that is when I tossed the mag and planned on building the car RIGHT not as they did on the assembly line.

Brian
It's proof positive that new cars aren't perfect...although that is how new cars are perceived even today. For example, if you walk around a dealership and look at the paint on new cars...so much Orange peel you'd think it was Christmas morning and all the kids got was Mandarins.

I painted a front clip on a Camaro a number of years ago and the insurance wouldn't allow any blend time...the car was Black and they felt it would be fine. I painted the clip and the customer refused it. I was told to repaint the clip...I went to my Boss and asked if I painted the car on my own time if I could paint the back half. The Boss talked to the customer and explained that the painter couldn't bring himself to put out a finish on a car that looked like his factory paint, the customer happily agreed. However, when that car was purchased...nobody said a word about how poor the paint was.

Since that episode, when dealing with factory finishes and insurance company's, I learned that it was as important to match the color as it was to match the factory finish. I had a real good paint rep at the time and he explained it very well.

Ray
04-13-2013 09:30 AM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
This is something that does work...I speak from the experience of doing exactly what "kso" has suggested...This thread, permalink #15

"Thanks Brian...if only I would have taken the time re-read the thread....my bad. OK, if this isn't a super rare, Big Block or Z28 car...(Something that they didn't make to many of) then what you can do to enlarge a gap on your doors or your deck lid is to take a stainless steel welding rod...take off the coating and weld it to the lip or outside edge of the deck lid...these rods can be 1/8 of an inch wide when the coating is off and if you weld it onto both sides of the deck lid it will give you and extra 1/4 inch of deck lid to work with. After it's welded on, install the lid, adjusting it to give you your best fit. Grind away whatever you need to give you the gap you want, apply a little filler on the welds (both top and bottom of the deck lid), block, prime, block and paint.

If this is a super rare 70 Camaro, I would advise to have the quarters re-installed correctly to get your gaps. I've done this on several custom builds (usually pre-war cars), because they are customs it doesn't matter, gaps are what's more important than originality."


I hope this helps.

Ray
Of course let's make it perfectly clear you don't need to cut off welded on panels and re-install to get perfect gaps. Sometimes just a little "massaging" one or the other can make things happen. There is a large gray area between just a little massaging and cutting the panels off and re-installing.

Post some photos and lets look at what you are talking about!

Brian
04-13-2013 09:26 AM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
I'm looking at the stripes and i can only imagine giving that kind of work to a customer, let alone millions of customers over the years, I'd be out of business. I remember when I bought my first AMX, mu buddy's all laughed and asked me why an AMC,,,I told them because the fit and finish sucked as bad on the AMC's as it did on Fords, GM's and Mopar's. I think that summed it up for fit and finish in the 60's 70's and started to get a little better in the 80's...when the big three and AMC (notice how I put that) had competetion from the off shore guys.

Ray
How about the wrinkles in the metal over the tail lamp! And the painted screws and latches! LOLOL, I am sorry I just can't do a 100 point show car. When I had my Vette I was looking to build it 100 point. I was buying the Corvette magazines and in there was a car with bare metal half shafts with just the right amount of rust on them, that is when I tossed the mag and planned on building the car RIGHT not as they did on the assembly line.

Brian
04-13-2013 09:24 AM
69 widetrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by kso View Post
Gaps sure have gotten better over time...still they did pretty good back when, considering what they had to work with and the factory situation. OK, what I really want to add to this thread is the following.

Here it is;...

When I was a kid;...

Dad said (so I know it must be true):

Panel gap is 5/32". Tolerance is, no visible variations along the gap upon a casual glance.

And, I would tig-weld the edge of the trunk lid (or door or whatever), moving fast and skipping around. Get the 1/16" steel rod hot and bird-doo-doo the stuff down for buildup, then grind it flat at the surface, then mark a line to grind to for the gap you want with masking tape and cut that, then radius edges like the folded sheet metal was and just make it look like it's supposed to. I've added a lot of metal that way sometimes.

BTW this is a hobbyist talking...not something I (or Dad) did for a living, but that's the knowledge.
This is something that does work...I speak from the experience of doing exactly what "kso" has suggested...This thread, permalink #15

"Thanks Brian...if only I would have taken the time re-read the thread....my bad. OK, if this isn't a super rare, Big Block or Z28 car...(Something that they didn't make to many of) then what you can do to enlarge a gap on your doors or your deck lid is to take a stainless steel welding rod...take off the coating and weld it to the lip or outside edge of the deck lid...these rods can be 1/8 of an inch wide when the coating is off and if you weld it onto both sides of the deck lid it will give you and extra 1/4 inch of deck lid to work with. After it's welded on, install the lid, adjusting it to give you your best fit. Grind away whatever you need to give you the gap you want, apply a little filler on the welds (both top and bottom of the deck lid), block, prime, block and paint.

If this is a super rare 70 Camaro, I would advise to have the quarters re-installed correctly to get your gaps. I've done this on several custom builds (usually pre-war cars), because they are customs it doesn't matter, gaps are what's more important than originality."


I hope this helps.

Ray
04-13-2013 09:23 AM
MARTINSR My friend and I laughed at this when he opened the trunk. We had a decades old joke about these stickers.



Back around 1985 he worked in a shop next to mine and we were both doing 68 Camaros. When I was putting mine together I was out back with the trunk open looking at how to put the jacking instructions sticker and he came up and and said, "You know how you put the on properly, just as they did at the factory?" I of course said yeah,how? And he walked away from the car with the sticker and then ran up to the car plastering it on the lid and ran off like a guy would have on the assembly line! LOLOL. And it was a LOT nicer than on this car he had just bought!

Brian
04-13-2013 09:13 AM
kso Gaps sure have gotten better over time...still they did pretty good back when, considering what they had to work with and the factory situation. OK, what I really want to add to this thread is the following.

Here it is;...

When I was a kid;...

Dad said (so I know it must be true):

Panel gap is 5/32". Tolerance is, no visible variations along the gap upon a casual glance.

----------------------

And, I would tig-weld the edge of the trunk lid (or door or whatever), moving fast and skipping around. Get the 1/16" steel rod hot and bird-doo-doo the stuff down for buildup, then grind it flat at the surface, then mark a line to grind to for the gap you want with masking tape and cut that, then radius edges like the folded sheet metal was and just make it look like it's supposed to. I've added a lot of metal that way sometimes. Corners, whether on the trunk lid or the quarter that it goes into, are not an area where you want there to be filler if possible.

BTW this is a hobbyist talking...not something I (or Dad) did for a living, but that's the knowledge.
04-13-2013 08:58 AM
69 widetrack I'm looking at the stripes and i can only imagine giving that kind of work to a customer, let alone millions of customers over the years, I'd be out of business. I remember when I bought my first AMX, mu buddy's all laughed and asked me why an AMC,,,I told them because the fit and finish sucked as bad on the AMC's as it did on Fords, GM's and Mopar's. I think that summed it up for fit and finish in the 60's 70's and started to get a little better in the 80's...when the big three and AMC (notice how I put that) had competetion from the off shore guys.

Ray
04-13-2013 08:45 AM
MARTINSR I have a million of them. How about the details on a virgin 69 Camaro that a friend of mine owns?

Sorry,I wasn't focusing on panel gap I was blown away at how bad the stripes were and just general body and paint quality. But this gives you an idea of what your Camaro was like originally.







YES, the strikers and latches were painted over on the doors trunk and the striker on the hood!















And yes that is a Repo hood he HAD to put on the car. I don't get it, I would want the original hood on there be damned if it was a flat and boring, like the world needed another Camaro with a cowl hood. double



They were FAR from perfect.

Brian
04-13-2013 08:38 AM
MARTINSR I love perfect fit panels, when I saw this car at the Peterson museum I had to get a few shots of the gaps, I don't remember what kind of car it was.





04-13-2013 08:33 AM
MARTINSR And yes on that shot of the left upper corner of the trunk lid the photo is over exposed (beautiful summer day) but you can still see that there was almost no gap at all, about 1/6". That is the way it was folks. They may have had some "guideline" for the panel fit but it was either VERY wide in range or it was just to have numbers written in a book somewhere, they were all over the place in reality.

Brian
04-13-2013 08:31 AM
MARTINSR Ahhhhh, here are the photos I was looking for of a virgin 66 GTO. This car is stone original with only a couple of spots of paint here and there done years ago to "fix" a scratch or something. This is how these cars fit from the factory.











Top corner of the trunk.





Rear corners of the trunk.













They were FAR from as nice as I made my 65 Buick Gran Sport panels fit and even they aren't nearly as nice as a 2013 Hyundai. My 65 Skylark that I drove for years I left as is when I repainted it and parked next to the Gran Sport it was HORRENDOUS compared and I honestly didn't make the Gran Sport that nice, it's still just a nice driver.

Brian
04-13-2013 08:23 AM
MARTINSR I know this hasn't a thing to do with this thread being it isn't a 70 Camaro but I was looking for some panel fit pictures of an original 60's car and I came across this one from work. I don't know what kind of car it is, I forget. But it was a 2010 Infiniti or something. This is factory, the car was not damaged, it was near brand new.



04-13-2013 08:08 AM
MARTINSR That there isn't a real set guideline on these cars. They were all over the place from the factory and in fact that panels fit like every loving crap. If you built your car exactly as a stone original barn find people would laugh at you the panels fit so bad.

Get them even around the edges with a 1/8" to 1/4" gap and you are good to go.

Brian
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