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Topic Review (Newest First)
09-11-2004 08:33 PM
tresi A lot of people have been bit by assuming that hot tanking leave a block clean enough to assemble. Solvents and caustics are excellent degreasers and decarbonizers but they do little for dirt and grit. It's the soap suds that float the dirt and grit. The jet washers are better at getting the grit out but the block will still need hand washed.
Now in this case with the blocked oil passage problems there were cleaning cleaning issues but this still could be a cam and lifter problem. It used to be if there was a cam and lifter problem it could be traced back to the wrong valve springs, improper break in or something like that. Here in the last few years I've seen and heard of so many cam and lifter problems that I'm almost gun shy to install another flat tappet cam. I'm rebuilding a motor for my pick-up right now and really wondering if I should retrofit a hyd. roller cam in it. The flat tappet cam that's in it now has over 300,000 miles on it. I have a few older but still new in the box cams on hand and wish that I had a box of lifters that was made 5 or more years ago.
I'm really curious to see what TurboS10 finds when he takes this one apart.
09-11-2004 07:35 PM
357ford That sux fella...thats one of the worse experiences a gear head can experience...had a simillar situation with a new shop in town... took my engine in as a core...three complete engine builds later (rebuild the first engine twice then rebuild my original last) I ended up with my original engine (rebuilt) and a strong dislike for that shop...more likely than not, it was poor assembly/cleaning as the first two destroyed the bearings in only a couple miles of easy driving, after a cam break in period. First engine came straight from the shop, I put it in, the second they broke in on a torque machine (or so they claim), I dropped my truck off and said pull it and replace it, they did, they broke it in or claimed they did, when cruising home after picking it up, the oil psi dropped. So I took it back and said make it right...during the last rebuilt... I spoke with an employee and he made the comment, "we are making sure this one is done right, we even miked(sp) the crank." You can imagine how the conversation went when I spoke to the owner next. Never good when you are dependant on someone and a decent chunk of money is involved...in the end the owner tried to convince me that he was doing me a favor(?) and told me my tranny leaking badly...(?) it was oil from their poor removal installation...how it got there is beyond me. I imagine you could care less about my story, figured I would give you another horror story to read... maybe take your mind of your situation for a few minutes......good luck getting it straightened out
09-11-2004 07:15 PM
ratlover oh man! ahhhh! AAAAAHHH! No NO NOOOO....
sorry for your loss, man, I am having reoccuring nightmares from those pics. It's everybodies worst nightmare, but it is a grim reality when we push the envelope on how much power an engine can make. I would be on your machinist's case a bit, maybe a bit of a break on the price the second time around at least. If you paid to have your block cleaned the job was not done!
09-11-2004 04:51 PM
trees Tresi, you are right on. Lessons learned thru failures are dear lessons and ones we will not repeat. Unfortunately, we went thrugh 2 more motors before the clue bird landed!!!

Trees
09-11-2004 07:07 AM
TurboS10 I think that you guys might be right on the block cleaning. Dont know if any of you saw the thread, but I had an issue with a plugged oil passage in the block when I first started the engine. My machine shop did all the block prep and I think that his grunts did not do a good job. They installed the cam bearings and it was suppose to be ready to assemble. I sprayed all the passages with solvent and blew them clean with compressed air before assembly, but the plugs to the lifter galleys and the cam bearings were already in place.

After I started it I had no oil pressure to the passenger side lifter bank. After talking to my machinist and doing some testing we narrowed it down to a plugged passage between the rear cam bearing and the distributor. I was able to use compressed air to blow it out of the hole and into the pan by hooking up my air compressor to the rear pipe plug and blocking everything else.

The thing is, if there was stuff there, it could have been elsewhere I guess.

It will show up when I take it apart I am sure.

Chris
09-11-2004 06:11 AM
hvyeqpmech Sorry to hear of your bad luck. I know you have been working on this project a long time. Have to agree with Tresi on block cleaning , same also goes for crank cleaning. I know that you did all the necessary cleaning though. You pre-lubed the engine and turbo?. At work after prelubing a engine we remove the oil supply line to turbo and pour oil in it while spinning turbo impeller by hand to make sure it is well lubed! Don't let the machine shop unstall cam bearings untill you have cleaned the block yourself or at least inspected it. Also goes for all galley plugs. Lots of places for crap to hide.
Hvyeqpmech.
09-10-2004 10:35 PM
strikingthematch sorry to hear about your loss! I hate to hear this kinda news and it's even worse when you know you did everything you could of and it still happens because of something that you didn't even see. Just seems to be that way with so many things in this world but the most important thing is that it will run again!

Good luck!
09-10-2004 08:47 PM
tresi
Quote:
Originally posted by trees
Turbo, the idle oil pressure dropping to 5 PSI really points to bearings gone South. Now whether their going bad is a result of cam lobe materials running through them remains to be determined. You may have been a victim of a poor vat job after the machine work, which will leave enough abrasive grit to work on ever thing. We had some bad luck with your same symptoms and each time the idle oil pressure, which had been around 30-35 suddenly dropped to 5 PSI. One motor had about 6000 miles on it when it happened, one had not been run on the street at all and another blew up at about 2500 miles. All had the grit. It will be interesting when you pull your oil pan. Bet you will find near 1/2 cup full of junk. Run a magnet over it to see what does not pick up.

Regardless, this is a bummer!!!!

Trees
No vat job will remove very much grit. You must wash the block with hot soapy water and a bore brush the cylinders and all oil galleys. Dry with compressed air. Finally swab the bores with a white paper tower moisten with engine oil. Repeat with new oiled paper towels until they the pick up no more black or gray grit.
09-10-2004 06:50 PM
trees Turbo, the idle oil pressure dropping to 5 PSI really points to bearings gone South. Now whether their going bad is a result of cam lobe materials running through them remains to be determined. You may have been a victim of a poor vat job after the machine work, which will leave enough abrasive grit to work on ever thing. We had some bad luck with your same symptoms and each time the idle oil pressure, which had been around 30-35 suddenly dropped to 5 PSI. One motor had about 6000 miles on it when it happened, one had not been run on the street at all and another blew up at about 2500 miles. All had the grit. It will be interesting when you pull your oil pan. Bet you will find near 1/2 cup full of junk. Run a magnet over it to see what does not pick up.

Regardless, this is a bummer!!!!

Trees
09-10-2004 06:09 PM
TurboS10 I did not think it was this much either until I unfolded the filter paper and poured the rest of the oil out of the bottom of the filter. Looks like I may be out some cash on this deal. I did do the magnet test again and there is a large portion of the material that is ferrous.......not a good thing.

Chris
09-10-2004 05:51 PM
Ghetto Jet I didn't think you had that much metal the way you discribed it earlier, wow. Sorry about your bad luck Chris.
09-10-2004 05:30 PM
tresi I'm sorry for your bad luck. That is worse than I expected to see. I thought that you were talking about a few dozen pepper sized flakes. This is serious.
09-10-2004 01:02 PM
TurboS10 The turbo is a large shaft and it could easily produce that much material if the bearings went on it, but it is not any looser than it was when I installed it.

The majority of the material is a bronze color so I think it must be a bearing or the thrust surface as suggested earlier. I guess rod ends could also cause it. I have seen a cam failure and it does not look like that to me right now. I suppose heat could make the pieces bronze in color, but most of it is not magnetic. Guess I will find out soon enough. I am going to get it ready to come out this weekend, but I have to get another engine off the stand and in another truck before I can pull this one. I will let ya'll know what I find in a week or two.

Chris
09-10-2004 11:35 AM
orangef4 I was going to say turbo until I saw the pictures.... I disassembled a junkyard turbo I had when building my setup. I had planned on using it, so I took it apart to check out the internals. The shaft bearings were fine, but the the thrust bearing was shot. It had nearly1/16" endplay. It should have been barely detectable. I did some checking, and it isn't too expensive to get them rebuilt. If you have to pull everything else apart, it wouldn't hurt to check. With that much metal, I would guess it is the cam.
09-10-2004 11:11 AM
phelan that canīt be good.
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