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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-13-2006 06:48 AM
STATUTORY GRAPE This guy is about an hour from me but I don't want to spend that time and money going to look at it and he doesn't have me do it. I'm going to try buffing that enamel this weekend and if I like the results, I'm going to start doing more of it. Then I can give cheaper quotes, charge less for the actual paint and still get the jobs and make a decent wage on labor (Maybe).
01-12-2006 09:35 PM
kenseth17 You have better conditions to work then I do. Only have an uninsulated one stall garage I work out of. Not the greatest conditions, I make it work till I can get the dang money tree to grow in the yard. I work full time now, so It doesn't leave a lot of time for any sidework. I won't really do much of anything till spring, plus it is too much work battling cold weather for me. Mitchell is the manuals that I have. Pretty much what most people use, I believe that motor makes them also. You can also get them on cd, but think they are pretty pricey. If you ever need the times on something that is crash work, or like replacing a part, shoot me an email and I'll find the page with the part numbers and times, until you can get some. I have most stuff from early 80's to around 2002 or 03. Mainly domestic in early years. Keep checking ebay. They show up on there, some body shops close down or replace them, or get the disk and updates, so they so up on there. Also might want to check with some shops or the tech school near you. I went back to the tech school the year after I finished the class and the teacher gave me a bunch of different ones. No I don't do interior work, other then maybe repairing some plastic or replacing a part. Just make sure you quote a fair amount on that job, If you find a bunch of rust holes hiding when you strip it, It takes time to replace all that metal and get things straight, paint and buff. If its fairly rusty, even putting in a fair amount of hours everyday, you just might be april when you get it done. Alot of things seem to take a bit longer then you originally thought. I wouldn't even try to give much of an estimate from a picture, you really can't tell much from them, got to see it in person and dig in to know the true story. Kinda getting off the topic of single stage here. Ohh well, not the first thread to go off course.
01-12-2006 08:34 PM
STATUTORY GRAPE There's a lot to learn about the paint bussiness. I am going to look for one of those manuals, is there one that's better than the other? I had a guy send me some pics of an 87 Olds 442 (like the Cutlass), that he wants me to strip and paint but the pics he took are while it was setting in a barn and they were dark and didn't show much in detail. In one pic it showed rot through on the door right where the door seem meets the fender seem, I told him I won't even try to fix it and he should buy a different door, he agreed and I asked him what paint type he wanted to go with and explained BC/CC and Acryllic Enamel to him and he was interested in BC/CC so I told him he could expect to pay anywhere from $400-$700 just for paint and additives then so much per hour after that. I hope he calls me back, it's a cool looking car, I'd have fun with that one (tinted t-tops, tu-tone, mags/white letters) He don't want it back until April or May so it would make a great "IN-BETWEEN" project. Do you do interior too or just paint/body? My shop 35x17 (give or take and inch) is set up in one corner of a 60'x120' pole bldg. The pole bldg. has a concrete floor so I have a LOT of room to work. I also have a "shop" outside the actual shop but still inside the pole bldg. I paint in my shop now but I want to set up a paint booth in one of the other corners, and eventually get a hoist and maybe a pit. I have 3 x 14' doors, I can drive my pickup and car trailer in one door and out another Makes it nice, I can have 4 or 5 projects going at one time. Right now the projects I have going on are: Putting a 350 in a 28' boat, painting a truck, putting a tranny in a jeep, and building my hotrod at the same time. WHEW!!!!!
01-12-2006 07:50 PM
kenseth17 You want that mustang, then you better head to appleton. Its not mine either, It was a side job. Much more work then I planned for. A good reason when you have an older car to do, to not just blurt out a price. Anything larger then a small job that you know you can do in maybe a week, tell you won't estimate unless you can strip it first (if its something old and has a bit of rust bubbles), and then set up a payment schedule, break up the work, and when you complete so many tasks, you get payed such and such. Lessons learned for next time. But ohh well, I sort of took it cause of what it was anyways, and had a bit of time on my hands at that time. Good to learn a little about business and dealing with people before you get a tax number and set up a business that has to pay the bills on the shop and also for you. Insurance work would be nice, but hear a lot are a hassle to deal with also. But it would be a lot better money then working on an old car, if you get insurance companys that are fair with the times, and send you plenty of work. I have a lot of mitchell manuals that I bought off of ebay a few years ago, Most models up to I think 2003 or so. The parts prices may not be accurate, but majority of the times should be pretty much the same. Just don't forget to check the front to see whats not included in the labor times. Like clearcoat is not included in the paint time, you get something like .4 hrs times total refinish hrs to add on to clearcoat. and they also tell you how much time per refinishing time to add to buff. Unfortunately they will not tell you time for such amount of rust, or time to fix dents or straighten something, That you have to start keeping track of how much time stuff like that normally takes you so you have an idea what to charge when something similar comes up.
01-12-2006 06:43 PM
STATUTORY GRAPE
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idontcare.net
Can you guys just like tell me what training i need so i can get off of this stupid site and get back to school?
Yeah, I guess the user I.D. says it all, if that's all the patience you have, don't do paint jobs for me


Thanks Kenseth, I'll need your address so I can come to Green Bay and pick up "MY" green Mustang I like that The bad thing about a tax no. is that I would have to claim everything On my tech sheet for this enamel it says to polish and put into service after 16 hours but I'm assuming they aren't talking about "cut and buff" I can still put my fingernail into it. I guess I'll wait a few more days

I JUST LOVE THESE SMILIES,,,I WISH WE HAD MORE TO CHOOSE FROM
01-12-2006 04:57 PM
kenseth17 RTS= ready to spray. Basically paint that is already reduced and the right viscosity. So I take that is you would measure out your paint, reducer and hardener in the right ratios, and then you can add up to 1 tenth (10%) of that amount of retarder. So say your total mixed up paint comes to 32 oz which equals a quart, then add up to 3.2 oz of retarder or just move your decimal 32.0 oz over one place for 10 percent, or times 32 x.10= 3.2. Just a little math lesson, not only do you have to play chemist, you have to understand math in this business also.
01-12-2006 04:48 PM
Centerline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idontcare.net
Can you guys just like tell me what training i need so i can get off of this stupid site and get back to school?
You're new so I'll offer some good advice. This forum is for discussions of paint and bodywork related subjects. If you have nothing worthwhile to add to the conversation please don't post garbage and waste people's time.

On second thought, I bet the people at the Washington School Information Processing Cooperative would like to know exactly what you've been doing with the school's computer.
01-12-2006 01:39 PM
Idontcare.net Can you guys just like tell me what training i need so i can get off of this stupid site and get back to school?
01-12-2006 01:37 PM
Idontcare.net
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerstroke
I sprayed a lot of Centari back in the late '80s and thru the '90s, and never had a problem with the finish and flow out. I always used overal gloss hardner (793 if memory serves) and never had to buff or colorsand. The only problem would be with your reds, because they would start fading in a couple of years if out in the sun much.

I still occasionaly use Centari, mostly for quick jobs on older vehicles that I refurbish for resale. I've found that there is money in older (10 years or so) cars geared towards school kids or poorer familys. If you can buy them right, do a quility but low cost job and have a product that is clean and looks good you'll come out alright and also make the customer happy.

My paint of choice is Dupont Chroma System, and use this exclusivly on customer jobs in the shop. If your doing collision work BC/CC is the way to go because it's the same as what comes from the factory and it's easy to blend panels when you get to spray clear over the whole blended panel.

As for doing jobs too cheaply, I would suggest getting a tax number so you can bid on insurance jobs, and also getting a subscription to something like "Mitchells" which will give you industry standard times for repairs, and follow the times. I charge $45 hr on Insurance jobs, and in a lot of cases will waive the customers deductable if the numbers add up. This makes the customer feel like the repair is free because nothing comes out of his pocket, and I come out good because my shop is on my acreage and my overhead is low. If you get a tax number and start doing insurance jobs be prepared to deal with a few A-Hole ajusters. I had one a while back from GMAC and decided I will not do jobs insured by them again unless the customer knows up front that if their insurer jacks me they will make up the differance.

Powerstroke
Dude, easy on the typing.... =_=
01-12-2006 01:34 PM
Powerstroke I sprayed a lot of Centari back in the late '80s and thru the '90s, and never had a problem with the finish and flow out. I always used overal gloss hardner (793 if memory serves) and never had to buff or colorsand. The only problem would be with your reds, because they would start fading in a couple of years if out in the sun much.

I still occasionaly use Centari, mostly for quick jobs on older vehicles that I refurbish for resale. I've found that there is money in older (10 years or so) cars geared towards school kids or poorer familys. If you can buy them right, do a quility but low cost job and have a product that is clean and looks good you'll come out alright and also make the customer happy.

My paint of choice is Dupont Chroma System, and use this exclusivly on customer jobs in the shop. If your doing collision work BC/CC is the way to go because it's the same as what comes from the factory and it's easy to blend panels when you get to spray clear over the whole blended panel.

As for doing jobs too cheaply, I would suggest getting a tax number so you can bid on insurance jobs, and also getting a subscription to something like "Mitchells" which will give you industry standard times for repairs, and follow the times. I charge $45 hr on Insurance jobs, and in a lot of cases will waive the customers deductable if the numbers add up. This makes the customer feel like the repair is free because nothing comes out of his pocket, and I come out good because my shop is on my acreage and my overhead is low. If you get a tax number and start doing insurance jobs be prepared to deal with a few A-Hole ajusters. I had one a while back from GMAC and decided I will not do jobs insured by them again unless the customer knows up front that if their insurer jacks me they will make up the differance.

Powerstroke
01-12-2006 01:28 PM
jcclark Yes, the viscosity of the paint is important. One of the typical gadgets
to measure it is called a "Ford cup" Or "zahn cup" (I think).
This is an issue that has been discussed at great length here before.
Most agree as long as you mix according to the mfg instructions you
will have it right. That is why I said I use retarder in place of some of the
reducer. The final mix is the same reduction rate, or viscosity.
If anything, when using retarder I mix it a little thicker, not thinner.

Example: If 16 oz of paint calls for 4 oz of reducer, I'll mix 16 oz of
paint with 2 oz reducer and 2 oz retarder for the last coat.
But the overall mix is the same reduction, or pretty close.
You don't want to over reduce your paint with retarder.
01-12-2006 12:51 PM
readdirections
acrylic enamel

a beginner may want to use a viscometer in reducing their paint. a viscometer is a small handle cup with a hole in the bottom. after adding thinner to your paint, you submerge the cup in the paint and time how many seconds it takes the paint to run out of the cup. when you later add retarder to the mixed paint on your finish coats, the time should not be more than 3 seconds less than when you did the first coat. after a few paint jobs , you may not have to rely on the viscometer. you can get one at your local jobber or at sears. that is how i taught my younger brother, when he first started painting.
01-12-2006 09:52 AM
jcclark No, a retarder and reducer are two different things.
And labeled accordingly.
A retarder for enamel is different that one for urethane.
The retarder I use is a universal one for lacquer and enamel but
not anything else. I also have one for urethane clear that I got
from my jobber. The painters use it a lot when the temps are way
up there, like upper 90's.
I haven't used it enough to have an opinion on it yet.
01-12-2006 09:31 AM
x711 Hi Jim, by a retarder do you mean a reducer ?

Do you use it with urethane based paint ?

What solvent are you using.

Thanks... X
01-12-2006 09:17 AM
jcclark When I use retarder I use a lot less thinner.
I don't want a thinner paint, I want a wetter paint.
With adding more thinner you get less coverage and it runs easier,
Especially when you're trying to cover.
With retarder, you can substitute the retarder for most of the thinner
and still spray it "full bodied", not over thinned so you don't get the runs.
With retarder the paint will stay wet and flow out so you actually
spray a lighter coat and it will all melt together.
again, to me it's like spraying oil, keeping thicker than over thinned paint
and leveling out.
I use way more retarder than recommended, but it works for me.
I use so much that I just mist on the last coat, spraying half the usual
amount of paint and increasing my distance back when spraying.
The control is unbelievable, probably not the recommended way but a friend
of mine did the side of a school bus this way and kept the entire side wet
before he finished spraying, it looked great.
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