|09-19-2008 06:45 AM|
there are atleast a dozen vendors that specialize in early T-bird restoration and aftermarket parts including motor parts....
most years in the T-bird resto business, my guess(?), Larry's Thunderbirds in CA...
biggest company/multiple locations, probably NPD (National Parts Warehouse)...
just goooogle a few simple specific T-bird parts: like 1957 Thunderbird hubcaps or aircleaner or grill and they will all show up...
very possible there is one within driving distance....
a picture is worth a 1,000 words....
I found a pic' of the almost finished linkage I made from scratch....
(took maybe 20 minutes to fabricate with just a hack saw and drill)
whatever you do make or buy, just be darn sure it CAN NOT bind up....and cause a stuck throttle!!!
something like that will work fine to get the truck home...
|09-18-2008 08:35 PM|
|shamtastic||Thanks again guys for all the info. The transmission is a ford-o-matic. Its been interesting trying to get this thing going. Three months ago I didnt even know what a harmonic balancer was, let alone get one off (still having trouble getting it back on). I checked the push rods, all are there and appear to be in good condition. I already have new gaskets, and a new stud (one of the studs is bent a tiny little bit and stripped, having trouble getting it out, any suggestions?) for the valve cover. Also I seem to be missing most of the setup for the linkage... Any suggestions on where to buy the parts? Thank you guys once again for the help. Hopefully soon, another Y-block will run once again!|
|09-18-2008 06:30 PM|
I spent a while looking at your pictures - you have an automatic transmission (Ford-o-Matic?) - and the bracket on the LH rear of the intake manifold is rigged to operate the "kickdown rod" that drops to the transmission.
This diagram shows how the t-bird levers work - and you have some very similar stuff. You are missing a spring off the kickdown - it holds a pin down at the bottom of the kickdown slot until the carb hits full throttle. You will need this tension spring at some point but not now.
There is a hole that "times" the levers - where you see the Philips screw driver stuck in there. With that part of the linkage locked - and the carb in place (at idle position) - the last rod can be adjusted to fit exactly from the locked linkage to the carb lever. As you can see - that rod has to be bent a good bit to fit around the side of the carb. I believe that was your inital problem?
The linkage rotates counterclockwise (seen from the drivers side) as you push down the foot pedal in the cab. The pedal is attached through a "bellcrank" (firewall pivot) to the linkage on the engine with another adjustable link (it moves upward as the pedal goes down) - and it needs to hold the pedal far enough off the floor to allow some serious amount of travel. As you "floor the pedal" - the linkage takes the carb to full throttle (and the carb's lever stops) - but the link keeps moving in the slot to move the kickdown rod - that then shifts the transmission.
All of this stuff is balanced by springs - and when you put in a "new" part - like a different carb with a different (stiffer) return spring - things get hairy. I put a positve stop on the back of my engine so that I could set the foot pedal height against the return spring - then adjust the carb to the screwdriver stop - and finally adjust the last link (from the firewall to the manifold linkage) to join the two. I think I see enough in the pictures for you to get this part to work - but you are missing the kickdown spring. Don't sweat it for now - put a bolt and heavy washer through the slot - you can see it in this last picture - and you can drive the truck home.
|09-18-2008 10:29 AM|
This throttle rod came from Speedway - it fits on a "ball stud" that is mounted to the lever on the carb. Speedway (and Holley) and probably Edelbrock sell the ball studs - the big end on the Speedway rod snaps over the ball and is secured with a cotter. This rod (which comes in several lengths) was bent to accomodate both my Demon ...and the Ford-o-Matic tranny kickdown. I got the right size of die and threaded it to match the Ford adjustment nut.
This carb is mounted on a Moroso 1/2'" spacer/isolator that has the bore taper cut from 1-11/16 down to the 1-7/16 size. Saves any modification of the iron manifold.
A word of warning (since this motor has set a while) - old idle Y's have "sticking valve syndrome". They can be very tough on pushrods on a cold start - the original type push rods were a very small diameter and solid - very low column strength. Later pushrods were tubular 5/16 diameter and much sturdier, hopefully you've got them. The valve covers are mounted with two studs each - get a pair of new gaskets - pull the covers - and squirt some lube on the valve stems as best you can. Make sure it has a full set of 16 pushrods - sometimes these engines get a nasty "miss" and people just park them without looking under the valve covers. Bent pushrods often just fold up and slip down into the valley! And many mechanics have just put in another pushrod and run them as is. The good news is - the pushrod can't get into any trouble down in there so don't panic. Many old Y's are torn down to find two or three "spare" pushrods inside.
These are solid lifter engines, shaft mounted, and the oil feed comes up through the shaft stands and shaft to each rocker. There is a small tube on each shaft that sends the extra oil back down toward the crankcase. Unlike a chebbie - this motor will easily run with no covers and not soak the exhaust manifolds. Starting an old cold motor with the covers off is not a bad idea. So long as the motor can get oil pressure to the main, rod and cam bearings - you can get her to go. You will soon learn how to adjust the solid lifters (an old and time honored mechanics tradition).
|09-18-2008 07:10 AM|
90% chance I found just what ya need to move the car....
the site says it (#1056) is a tapered spacer specifically for a 1 and 11/16 AFB (which is the same as a Edelbrock) to a 1 and 7/16" bore manifold....
Caution:I've never used that particular spacer so contact those folks and confirm it will work for your specific application....
for absolute best motor performance a tapered spacer isn't real smart but it will likely work more than plenty good enough will you re-build the truck....
LOL, worry about the linkage alignment "after" you have found a carb mount that works!!!
I got bored one day and made "purdy" linkage for my car, for about about $5-7 and one trip to Lowes= .0125x 1/2" aluminum bar stock, 1/4" diameter steel tubing to use for dog leg spacers (use 2 tubes to form a "box" of bar stock and spacers so it won't flex/twist) and some 3/16" stove bolts thru the tubing to tie all together....
something like I made will work,,,,
|09-18-2008 01:01 AM|
In the picture of the engine I posted above you can see most of it. It looks similar to the one you linked, but has a shallow u shaped bend in it. when I try to line it up to the carb, it also seems to be hitting against the side of the carb, and a some of the stuff on carbs side you can see here
I am pretty sure its the 500 one.
|09-18-2008 12:19 AM|
truck throttle linkage - tried to attach a picture - does it look like this one?
|09-17-2008 07:25 PM|
Thanks for the additional info. I will double check my carb size. I really dont want to mess with the manifold, as I think they are probably harder to find and more expensive than an adapter. I will eventually have to get a new carb anyway.
Right now, all I am trying to do is get the truck running so I can move it to my house from my uncles. Once moved I can start pieceing together things for it. One more immitiate question... The throttle linkage doesnt line up correctly for the carb, and I dont think it is long enough. Will I have to get one made, or does someone sell one that would fit? Thank you
|09-17-2008 11:43 AM|
Throttle Bore Matching
The reason I'm sending this diagram is because we were trying to help a guy - and found that he had mounted a "too big" carb on a smaller manifold (one hole over another) - and simply added gaskets under the carb to get the butterflies to swing. This is only OK to drive it home from grandma's house.
This is a double problem - the step all around the bore is bad news for air flow all in itself - but also the primary butterfly turns down and then starts to "reseal" at the rear. This forms a "pocket" where air flow is nearly stopped - and everything has to go over the leading edge of the throttle blade. It is also happening at a throttle opening where you should just be reaching "cruise" for ordinary driving.
Charlies "B" manifold was opened to create a slot - which is a very common practice with aluminum high perf replacement manifolds. Makes a big hole right where the butterfly swings open under the carb. It is also a lot cheaper than buying a "BlueThunder" Y-block manifold.
|09-17-2008 09:16 AM|
from memory, the Edelbrock carb bores are 1 and 11/16 so you need to modify the the too small spacer bores and too small 1 and 7/16" intake bores to match the Edelbrock to have it work correct....
Plan B: because the Edelbrock is a bit to big for 292 cubes anyway is buy a smaller cfm carb that does have 1 and 7/16" bores to match the stock intake bores for more low rpms TQ.....
as always: "time or money"
the 600 Edelbrock will work fine on your motor, they are the simplest to tune, I'd go the spacer and intake modification route....
heck, ya want a phenolic carb heat insulator anyway (even with a different carb) for best performance
a spacer does typically help low end TQ on a stock manifold so it will offset the performance difference of a smaller carb advantage (not a big difference either way)
|09-17-2008 12:32 AM|
Holley 390 CFM
The spacer that Speedway sells is made for a Holley 390 CFM 4160 type carb - a "modern design" vacuum secondary version. The original four barrel carb was a Holley 400 cfm - with the (4) 1-7/16 throttle bores that just match the "B" manifold. The base plate on the two carbs (old and new) is an exact match. Some 50's models of Mercury used this same "B" manifold with an AFB type carb like the Edelbrock.
This modified "B" was set up by my friend Charlie McCraney. It is opened up as a slot side for side - but the center wall is maintained to keep the 180° split (every other cylinder feeds left or right).
I put a Road Demon Jr. 525 on mine - a vacuum secondary 600 cfm is about the limit for a responsive street driver carb on a Y.
|09-16-2008 09:30 PM|
thanks for the info.
the phenolic isolator on speedway says it is for holley 290 CFM only
|09-16-2008 10:30 AM|
Thats a "B" manifold
Your manifold is a "B" type - a later four barrel version so you have as good a factory part as you will find.
This photo shows a way you can make the adapter and heat isolation spacer the same part. The 1/2 inch phenolic isolator is available from both Speedway Motors and Moroso - maybe others as well. It matches the 1.438 Ford manifold bores exactly on the bottom (thats the way it comes). By matching the upper side of the plate to a carb base gasket, it does both tasks at the same time. The phenolic material is easily filed and sanded to a smooth transition - a funnel that smoothly transitions into the manifold bores. You don't want any sharp edges in the air stream below the base plate of the carb. Be sure you don't taper off too sharply, use the whole half inch - as the butterflies turn beneath the base of the carb they can "re-seat" on the spacer and alter air flow more than you expect.
A "closed " four hole spacer that keeps the two sides of the 180° manifold seperate will help build torque and these Y motors are torque motors.
|09-16-2008 12:08 AM|
The carb fit on the studs, it just didnt line up properly around the edges. With the adapter it lines up great on the edges and the 4 bbl. The adapter screw holes I had to drill out the threads though... It came with two gaskets, the manifold/adapter and adapter/carb. I cant even remember what exact carb I have. I will have to look again.
|09-15-2008 11:57 AM|
Sham - this is the later style of four barrel manifold. It has the Holley base pattern cast on to it - but I'm thinking you must have the earlier 9425-A version with an adapter plate. The early arrangement and adapter will work just fine for a daily driver. Make sure there are no "steps" showing beneath the throttle bores. Also think about getting an insulating gasket or isolator to keep too much heat from cooking your carb.
This later 9425-B manifold looks pretty good - but it only has 4 x 1.438 diameter (1-7/16) throttle bores. To get it to match a bigger throttle bore carb - you still have to have an adapter. Don't spend a lot of bucks changing right away - unless you stumble over one in the barn.
These are "air gap" manifolds (from fifty years ago) and you can get them to run faily cool by using the heavy truck style intake manifold gaskets (292 cid) that have a restricted manifold heat riser port. This will work with your "A" manifold too.
Mr. Mustang: Did you follow those guys web site while they went to California? They took off with 30 year old tires and shreaded them somewhere in PA - but not too much other drama. I think they finally ran the dizzy with standard timing setting and full manifold vacuum.
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