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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-25-2009 04:20 PM
Second Skin Rep Which law is that?

1. according to OSHA we not required to give MSDS sheet to consumers at all, but can do so at our own free will. MSDS sheets are for people that work with the products on a daily basis.

2. The products youare requesting an MSDS sheet for are Non Harzardous articals which, according to OSHA do not require an MSDS sheet. The only reason we have an MSDS sheet is for our suppliers that require them from their vendors dispite OSHA regulations

Here is some reading for you:
http://www.ilpi.com/msdS/faq/partb.html#downstream

The purpose of an MSDS sheet to to inform people that are working with hazardous chemicals on a regular basis to the dangers & precautions of that chemical as well as the action required if exposed in a dangerous way.
Sending you an MSDS sheet seems to be nothing more than egaging in a pissing match which I am not interested in joining.

If you want an MSDS sheet, you will need to send a formal request through a legit channel. Today is Sunday, and I am at home, not in a possition to provide you with one, and really not all that interested either.

Your request can be made to:
service@secondskinaudio.com



ANT
01-25-2009 04:09 PM
red65mustang ANT,
the law says simply and clearly:

"The public has a right to MSDS data upon request."

I am requesting a copy of the Dampifier and Damplifier Pro MSDS sheets.
01-25-2009 12:33 PM
Second Skin Rep
Quote:
Originally Posted by red65mustang
ANT,
a "friendly" suggestion...

"let sleeping dogs lie!!!!"

your product was a top rated in the "shoot out" and speaks for itself!!!!

if you want to post competitor negatives then back it up with independent scientific testing results...
(or you can end up in court)

I would like to read the MSDS sheet on your product and any ASTM testing results if you can post a link..
True, we did fair well in the Sound deadener showdown, but my post has very little to do with our product. It has more to do with informing the board about the differences in marketing hype and warning guys about possible problems they might have with products that are not specifically designed for the application at hand.

What might you hope to see with our MSDS?
What do in case you accidentally ingest our product?

ASTM rating? Sure.. we have them.
We don't publish them though. In comparison to other companies that inflate and exaggerate their ASTM results, ours look pathetic. We are left to either lie and inflate our numbers or look incompetent in the shadow of lies that other companies chose to publish in lieu of accurate numbers.

We choose not to publish our numbers because of these exact exaggerations.

ANT

PS.
I am not too concerned with "ending up in court" as I have not mentioned any competitors by name and have not said anything that is not absolutely true. It is the shady companies that are selling toxic asphalt as vibration dampers that should be worried about ending up in court..
01-25-2009 12:11 PM
red65mustang ANT,
a "friendly" suggestion...

"let sleeping dogs lie!!!!"

your product was a top rated in the "shoot out" and speaks for itself!!!!

if you want to post competitor negatives then back it up with independent scientific testing results...
(or you can end up in court)

I would like to read the MSDS sheet on your product and any ASTM testing results if you can post a link..
01-25-2009 11:19 AM
Second Skin Rep Lots of info in this thread. Some good some bad.
I will start by saying this:
This topic has been discussed at length for more than 5 years on various car audio boards, and many of the same conclusions have been drawn, but as a results of the topic having such a lengthy life, much of the misinformation has been sorted out.

The people on the car audio forums that were using the Peel and seal product form home depot or Lowes found that stuff melts, and doesn't last more than 2 years in most cases. Sometimes it does though. It really depends on the temperature.
The asphalt mats look very similar to real vibration damping, but they are nothing even close.
Many people use them to save money, which is understood, but there are some significant drawbacks to using a roofing product in a car.

1. Asphalt is toxic a gives off gasses when it heats up.

2. Asphalt melts at 180 degrees 100% of the time. There is no getting around this fact. If it lasts longer than one season, consider yourself lucky.

3. Asphalt is not elastomeric, so it will not convert vibrations in to heat ( a necessary part of energy conversion for constraint layer viscoelastic dampers (CLVED) to work)

4.The foil is too thin. Aluminum foil on a CLVED has to be at least 3 mils to constraint the elastomeric layer enought to reduce vibrations.

5. They do not weigh enough. The asphalt mats only weight about .3 lbs per sq foot. This would not be too bad if they were true CLVED, but they are not. so, the only way the asphalt mat are able to help with vibration reduction is by adding weight to the panel. This is not very efficient or effective when the product weighs so little.

The problem is that they mats look very similar to real CLVD mats and so there are a number of companies that sell them to customers that do not know the difference. Many of the companies that have been suggested in this very thread are guilty of this betrayal.
After all, the product has black adhesive with silver foil. Why would anyone think any differently?!

I am not going to point out any names of my shady competitors in this thread, but I will tell you guys an industry secret. This industry secret is 100% accurate 100% of the time.

There is not a sound deadening manufacturer in the entire indutry that puts a constraint layer damper on a roll right off the extruder. Not one.
If it comes on a roll, it was originally designed by the manufacture to go on a roof. Companies that sell foil backed vibration dampers on rolls (even butyl ones) by them from roofing mastic manufacturers and then sell them to the public as vibration dampers.
Without exception!

Companies that make CLVED mats which are designed to go in automobiles have much higher standards to live up to than those that produce roofing products. The product they (we) produce come in sheet form only.

1. The foil needs to be flat and non-creased in order to work at 100%

2. the foil is too thick to roll up - Look at the Dynamat extreme door kit. This is a kit that is rolled up AFTER it comes off the line. IF you get your hands on one you will see how difficult it is for them to roll up and put in the box.

3. Dampers in sheet form are easier to get applied by OEM companies.

4. CLVED are designed at the specific viscosity that is required to reduce the most amount of automotive vibrations, while rolled, roofing products are set to the exact viscosity to work on a roof. On a roof, there is very little need to a specific viscosity, which is why there is so much variance between batches or asphalt materials. Some batches of asphalt work decent, while other fail right off the line (when used in cars). The QC for asphalt mats is nothing even close to the QC for CLVED.

There are lots of reasons why using a roofing product in a car is a bad idea, and lots of reasons why true vibration dampers will outperform them every time.
If anyone has any sound deadening questions, I am always happy to help, whether you use Second Skin or not.

ANT
01-23-2009 05:14 PM
jumpmaster Thanks to you & Dan for the advice. I'm a master at the "ah, sh*#" approach to mechanical work & developing a similar expertise for electrical work.
01-23-2009 12:40 PM
red65mustang it is wiser to complete the truck to the point that you can test drive it with just a drivers seat and de-bug everything mechanical and electrical....
(that's also going to tell you what areas need sound deadener and how much insulation thickness and air drafts/noises sealing and rattles etc,,,the empty shell amplifies everything)

my $.02:
for sure do not trim the carpet at all till everything is absolutely finalized...
there are just way to many "risks" to do a car out of correct/normal sequence,,,,interior is one of the last parts installed....
1950 pick up=only about 8 circuits to deal with,,,"gitter done now" so you can install the harnesses and individual wires with the best protected routing.....
(or you likely will be "one step forwards two steps back" and a couple of "ah sh##" later in the project)
01-23-2009 07:45 AM
DanTwoLakes Do yourself a favor and get the vehicle wired first. Get everything you need to do to complete the car mechanically done before the interior goes in. Naturally, you can do things like sun visors, seats, and door panels without having the wiring done, as long as you don't install the stuff til the car is ready.
01-23-2009 06:42 AM
jumpmaster LOL. That's why I put "arguments" in quotes - it was clear that nobody in this thread takes themselves too seriously. In another thread concerning using SMC engines vs. other ones, a few members, while making good points from their own situations, are a bit dogmatic & intolerant of the circumstances of others who may not have pockets as deep as theirs (yes, I used a Chevy 350 crate engine because it was the cheapest alternative for a reliable new engine, but I also like how clean it looks with the distributer at the rear) - sort of like the Harley guys who maintain that the last "real" Harley was a flathead/panhead/shovelhead/etc. (depending, naturally, on what they own or want to own) - & sneer at anything else.

On to a question for you guys, since most of you seem to have done several builds & this is my first, and maybe only, one. Would I be causing myself grief by doing the interior work before doing the rewiring I also need to do on my entire truck (see my bio for a description)? I already have most of what I need to do the interior & I won't get around to the wiring until sometime this summer. Advice/warnings would be appreciated! Other than the heat/noise insulation stuff you've been talking about & carpet instead of a rubber mat, I'm going to do a pretty close to stock interior.
01-22-2009 04:05 PM
red65mustang jumpmaster,
glad you enjoyed the thread, thanks....

LOL, at our age,,, "grumpy old men" is the norm!!!!

nah, not a argument at all,,,Dan just asked for further explanation,,,so that "you" can be the judge!!!!

you will find the same back and forth banter between members in all the HR forums and that is what does make this site better than most!!
(atleast more entertaining to read???)
01-22-2009 10:37 AM
APalusky I have to agree.. No yelling, no I'ts my way or the highway. Just good information from the people that have done it before.. There are other sites out there with the information, but someone new to this field gets shot down for asking for help. Now I am closer to being done with my project. I have learned alot along the way. I am still learning. Would I do it all over again?? Probably not.. I would look for something (along with someone who knows what to look at) that is mostly done, but done the right way. Now people told me to save my money and get something that was a driver.. I know now that that is the way to go, but by doing all of the work myself. If at any time something breaks. I will be able to track it down. I am nearly done with the wiring. I have turned the engine over a couple of turns, but stopped it so that I can pull the destributor and turn the oil pump to prime the engine first. Next will be the drive shaft. then the body work. Put everything back together and paint it. So far it has been two years. I figured that it would take near 4 to 5 years. I still think it will take another year untill it is considered road worthy. I would like to say Thanks for all of your help Past Present, and Future. Al
01-22-2009 10:16 AM
DanTwoLakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by APalusky
Would carpet go all the way under the dash to the top of the firewall?? Al
If you want it to, yes, but normally just up far enough so the top edge of the carpet isn't seen, and below anything that goes through the firewall or is attached to the firewall.
01-22-2009 10:12 AM
DanTwoLakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by jumpmaster
Even the "arguments" provided a lot of useful info & tips to this novice.

But if you notice, there was no name calling, swearing, or questioning of ancestry and in the end we just agreed to disagree.
01-22-2009 09:54 AM
APalusky With the RaaMatt I got more material for a better price than the Dynamatt.. I may buy some of the Dynamatt Extreme for just the firewall, and kick panel to double up the material because of the heat and sound. I already have the rollers. I bought two rollers. One is smaller than the other to help mold it in the tighter areas. I have quite a few rolls of the aluminum tape. It is easier to use around drafty windows in the house. A plastic spreader is also useful to make it fit better, and also for making a straight cut. Then spray some adheasive over the matt and put the foil covered insulation then the carpet. Now I have also heard of putting the foam underlayment. I have the room for more added insulation though. The only thing I would need to do is put a 1/2" plate under the gas pedal.. The pipes for the heater are long enough.. Would carpet go all the way under the dash to the top of the firewall?? Al
01-22-2009 09:07 AM
jumpmaster Just wanted to thank all the participants for the wealth of info. Even the "arguments" provided a lot of useful info & tips to this novice.
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