|05-02-2009 02:56 PM|
Crash tech, I agree when acid is used. I spoke to person that I feel is very knowlegable, in chemestry. They advised that there is not enough PH balance for this product to "attack" good steel. My plan is to blow seams out dry, epoxy and seam seal where ever possible to reach . I will also be using 3M Rustfighter I as a cavity wax when complete. I have been to busy to start this with all the activity spring brings. But, hope to start soon, will keep all posted on results.
|05-01-2009 09:18 PM|
Here's a place that offers dipping and e-coating. I'm sure it requires deep pockets!
|05-01-2009 11:20 AM|
|crashtech||In the original post, weeping seams due to the dipping process was mentioned. The only way to make sure this does not happen is if the outfit that dips the body has the capability to then dip the body into an e-coat bath. Total immersion into primer is the only sure way to prevent rust creepage from seams that have been laid bare by an acid dipping process.|
|05-01-2009 11:05 AM|
I have used all three products, the safestrustremover product does everything they show on the safestrustremover website.
I also read in Hot Rod magazine the safestrustremover did the best job on the heaviest rust on the hood of the project car they were doing.
They do incrediable work removing rust with the sump pump approach that they seem to have invented for the safestrustremover product .
The 1957 Plymouth Belvedere preservation project seems to be in the right hands as far as rust remover products go for the job they are about to do .
|03-14-2009 03:09 PM|
Well it's been a long time since chemistry class, but yes the chemistry does work. Rust is nothing more than iron-oxide (iron and oxygen) but to form it needs a catalyst (water, or even better salt). reversing this process is simple, remove the oxygen atom from the iron, and bingo, back to pure iron. It is a simple redox reaction that any high school chemistry teacher would be able to show you. This can be accomplished by either a chemical bath like evapo rust, or electrolysis (like the solution mentioned here).
Have you ever used one of those dips for your wifes silver to get the tarnish off, same thing... silver tarnish is just rust on silver.
That being said these systems only work on rust that is bonded to the rest of the metal. if the rust flakes off, so will the iron once it is returned back to metal, so get the big chunks off.
OH and this stuff is a piss poor degreaser, and has a very hard time penetrating any kind of contaminant.... so clean thoroughly to get best results...
Sorry I don't remember the exact chemistry, but the theory is sound from what I do remember. And no, I have never used any of these products myself, so I can't comment on their effectiveness.
Hope that may be of some assistance..... IF you do give it a go I would love to hear the results..... Keep us posted....
|03-14-2009 02:48 PM|
Flash rust is a problem but it is usually easy to remove by sanding, brushing, etc after the part has dried. Depends a LOT on the water being used too, seems the spring water at my place does not have nearly (if any) the flash rust problem as the city water I had at my shop. I used the DuPont Metal Etch solution back in the Lacquer primer days in an effort to use it right (if there is such a thing as using that crap right! ) and it would turn an otherwise clean looking panel into a colored panel that had hues of blue and brown but mostly a golden brown, little doubt what that was! I got flash rusting each time I did this but I simply scuffed it off and applied the primer, never had any problem at all and it sure seemed to help adhesion.
|03-14-2009 01:48 PM|
|crownver||The electrolysis method I'm trying does not use any kind of chemical, but must be immersed. All you use is sodium carbonate to create an electrolyte. Bought some ph adjuster at a hot tub supplier. Don't know if this is the same as the shower method?|
|03-14-2009 11:39 AM|
The one thing that I can't get my head around is rinsing bare metal with water. I remember using a product such as this years ago and after following directions and rinsing it a VERY fast flash rust occured. I have never used it since. I obviously did something wrong if this is a standard procedure.
|03-14-2009 11:36 AM|
Just jarshing you Mikey!
|03-14-2009 11:09 AM|
When using any of the Phosphoric acid rust removers such as Rust-Mort, Ospho, etc (when used a remover and not a "converter") a person can choose to leave the Phosphate coating or not. If it is left to dry then the coating will remain but if it is thoroughly rinsed with water before it dries it will leave clean metal. If it dries and the coating needs to be removed later then it is a simple matter of re-wetting with the product and then rinsing before it dries again.
|03-14-2009 10:27 AM|
I've rated this pleasant and technically educational thread and submitted it to be included in the knowledgebase.
|03-14-2009 10:14 AM|
In response to the original questions regarding rust removal with: D-rust it, Safest rust remover, Evapo rust.
The most important, overlooked aspect of these fluids is that they are NON-HAZARDOUS, the 'greenest' of all rust removal technologies available today.
These products do not need to be neutralized after use due to their chelant based chemistry. You simply rinse the part thoroughly w/ water. One of the products mentioned will not leave any kind of coating on the metal after it is rinsed off. there will be nothing between the metal and the finish coat. In my opinion, this is the best adhesion one can achieve. The drawback is that the metal should be protected from further rusting with a spray on, 'dry to the touch', protectant or if small enough, wrapped in VCI paper, etc. The other two will leave a thin phosphate coating which will protect the metal from subsequent rust, but only for a short time. The coating they leave may, or may not be acceptable for finish coating.
These products will not cause any hydrogen embrittlement that I am aware of.
Other members familiar w/epoxy may be better able to answer the question concerning bare metal and epoxy.
If you refer to treating the inside with regards to rust removal, these products will remove rust as long as the surface can remain wet w/ the removal fluid, using either immersion or recirculation.
If you use these fluids in fuel tanks, clean them first w/ some detergent and rinse them out. These fluids will remove some oil dirt and grease, but doing it w/ the detergent is much less expensive. Let the rust remover remove rust, that is what it was designed for.
If there is rust scale, remove it first with a hammer, chain in fuel tanks, etc. Once again don't waste the fluid.
35 prog is correct in considering the continuous shower method. Once set up w/ the numerous , inexpensive off the shelf items, you let it do the work while you go to work, go to sleep, have a beer or whatever. I have used this method with much success in my repair shop.
These removal fluids rust removers are ideal for thin body parts. How many out there have sandblasted through a thin sheet metal part that otherwise would be intact if these rust removal fluids were used? They do not remove any metal unless left in the solution for an incredibly long time. Why would you want to leave them in longer once the rust is removed?
Crownver, You can de-rust an entire car if you scale up the continuous shower method. Plus you can spray it upside down to get under floors hardtops, trunklids, chassis, etc. The applications are merely limited to your imagination. Anyone can use duct tape, plastic, pump, hose and sprayer of choice. You can even use irrigation type pipe so that it drips or streams over the car to get the upper surfaces.
The black finish you refer to is not magnetite, but a soft black reside easily removed using a soft bristle brush (paint brush) and rinsing w/ water. That residue may fool you into thinking that the part is not even partially or completely de-rusted. You must check the object frequently, and clean off the residue to see the progress. If rust is still present(be sure to check the pits closely!) re-soak or shower again until removed.
35prog nailed it in his last reply. BTW: rotisseries work great!
|03-14-2009 06:55 AM|
|35prog||Crownver, Don't lol to loud, thats not far off from my thoughts. I have a rotisserie and will build a "shallow pool" and use the shower method, if this stuff works. Going to give it a try. I keep ya posted. As far as blasting goes, I have a large blaster and compressor, but will not chance the warpage or work hardening that it causes.|
|03-13-2009 09:53 PM|
|crownver||I've been trying the electrolysis method on some smaller parts in a plastic garbage can and can say that it works quite well. Takes time but there are not harsh chemicals and very little mess. My kids got a hood he needs to de-rust and I'm trying to talk him into building a tank out of wood and plastic sheeting to give it a shot. The process leaves a black finish that I understand is magnetite, but it comes off with a wire wheel and leaves shiney metal behind. Wonder if you could use a pool and do the whole car? LOL|
|03-13-2009 07:03 PM|
|cobalt327||Is media blasting out of the question?|
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