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Topic Review (Newest First)
06-08-2009 07:17 PM
crashtech
Quote:
Originally Posted by brainsboy
I have ran the PPG SV epoxy primers over USB filler with problems. I called PPG and they said themselves that epoxy primers should be used on bare metal only and other people have complained about the same issues we had. As the PPG tech also pointed out even though it may work over other fillers and primers epoxy primers are chemically designed for metal. Sealers however work better over other products.
What is PPG SV epoxy? The only SV I could find was an Omni product that specifically allowed filler as a substrate. Could you please provide a link to the tech sheet? I'm always ready to learn! Thanks!
06-08-2009 02:30 PM
deadbodyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssaahemifan
I had trouble using SPI Epoxy and metal prep even though I scuffed the treated surface before epoxy.

I have always metal prepped every car I do. This was the first time using SPI epoxy and I had some adhesion issues.

I was going to abandon it for a different epoxy that is compatible with metal treatments ??

Maybe I don't have to???

SPI says no etch products.
Ahh,metal prep,what kind?I use SPI epoxy exclusively and always prep so your problem must be in the "metal prep".read the ingrediants does it say water anywhere?If you want to know what I use ,Pm me, I'll show you a great way to do it that I've learned in my 35 yrs of P&B. even got pics to help ya
06-08-2009 01:33 PM
brainsboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by 52F1
Here we go again Your advise is Wrong
We are her to help people.... not give out a Ludicris opinion with NO foundation whatsoever.
52F1
Maybe you should read posts more clearly.
First of all I didnt give out a ludicris opinion. My original post said to use CAUTION not that it couldnt be done, you need to be careful with the products your choosing.


I have ran the PPG SV epoxy primers over USB filler with problems. I called PPG and they said themselves that epoxy primers should be used on bare metal only and other people have complained about the same issues we had. As the PPG tech also pointed out even though it may work over other fillers and primers epoxy primers are chemically designed for metal. Sealers however work better over other products.
06-08-2009 07:36 AM
deadbodyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by crashtech
Please provide links to back up these questionable assertions, because I have never seen any epoxy tech sheet that restricts allowable substrates in such a way. The only restrictions I have seen have to do with TPA (lacquer), type of metal conditioning, and acid-etch primers, and of course the normal requirement for adhesion promoter over certain types of TPO, etc.

All epoxies I have dealt with are IDEAL primers for application over plastic filler.
I've done it both ways and a few I wont mention.If anything ,the bondo will suck up the epoxy and dri FASTER than the rest of the car,so I start off by putting two coats on the body work then do the whole car with two to three coats so really the body work gets 4-5 coats but then again I'll sand and block my body work all the way to 320 therefore eliminating the need for any 2k spray on bondo,preperation is everything
06-08-2009 07:25 AM
deadbodyman Some of us dont even use 2k ,just epoxy,but dont try this at home its a technique thats just for the pros.Anybody can screw anything up(just ask ME) SPI is the sheet ,thats for sure.I've takin it to its limits and beyond,IMO its the best ,for me anyways.And if you ever have any trouble Barry K will be glad to help,anytime,he even answers the hotline phone himself,very impressive,just like his products.I'm a big fan!!!!!!
06-07-2009 10:13 AM
52F1
Quote:
Originally Posted by brainsboy
My information is based on experience
Personally I would never use epoxy as a sealer over body work and filler. As I mentioed epoxies are very sensitive to the type of material they are being sprayed over. Epoxies are also designed and developed to be sprayed directly on metal not over filler. .

Here we go again Your advise is Wrong
We are her to help people.... not give out a Ludicris opinion with NO foundation whatsoever.
We are here to steer people in the Proper direction
Epoxy works GREAT over fillers and used as a Sealer before Topcoat
Epoxy were designed as a Sealer

This is Just for you BrainsBoy

the instructions right off the SPI website for EPOXY as follows......

After first reading our Epoxy Tech Sheet, mix enough #6600 series epoxy to spray two
wet coats over the entire car. Spray one wet coat and let flash about 30 minutes, then
apply a second wet coat. Let the epoxy set overnight and then apply body, or fiberglass
filler and glazing putty over the epoxy. It is not necessary to sand the epoxy before
applying the fillers, as they will bite into the epoxy, and feather great. When you have
finished sanding all of the bodywork, you are likely to have some bare metal spots from
sanding. Spray one wet coat of epoxy over all filler spots and over any bare metal spots.
Let the vehicle set overnight.

The next day, you can start spraying the 2K primer over the epoxy. Once again, it is not
necessary to scuff or sand the epoxy before applying primer. The most important
thing to remember at this point, is spray one wet coat of primer, and let it set for 30
minutes before applying the second coat. Follow this procedure between coats of primer.
This step, when abused, messes up more paint finishes than anything else!

When all of the primer blocking and any necessary primer repairs have been done, it is
always best to use the epoxy as a sealer. Mix up enough epoxy to go around the car with
one wet coat, adding a double shot glass of SPI #885 urethane reducer, per quart. Let the
epoxy set for 30 minutes. Stir one more time, and strain. Spray one full wet coat of epoxy
over the entire car. The epoxy should set for 24 hours, then wet sand as needed, with
600-800 grit paper and then you are ready to base.



52F1
06-07-2009 10:03 AM
Deez The SPI site forum the guy just did a Monte bad to the bone. I think he did like epoxy fill epoxy prime epoxy prime paint and it is Bad *****. I think, by the looks of it, that guy wasn't guessing, and his epoxy was over everything but the paint topcoat. Then again, what do I know...
06-07-2009 08:26 AM
crashtech
Quote:
Originally Posted by brainsboy
Personally I would never use epoxy as a sealer over body work and filler. As I mentioed epoxies are very sensitive to the type of material they are being sprayed over. Epoxies are also designed and developed to be sprayed directly on metal not over filler.
Please provide links to back up these questionable assertions, because I have never seen any epoxy tech sheet that restricts allowable substrates in such a way. The only restrictions I have seen have to do with TPA (lacquer), type of metal conditioning, and acid-etch primers, and of course the normal requirement for adhesion promoter over certain types of TPO, etc.

All epoxies I have dealt with are IDEAL primers for application over plastic filler.
06-02-2009 11:44 AM
deadbodyman Well guys I'm Very oldschool but I'll try anything on used cars and when I use sealer I'll use SPI epoxy from now on ,its that good,just finished a 69 ss rs five years in the making.Barry K.(the owner)assured me its what I needed,So after calling him ten times asking differnt questions,I sprayed a test car,and it worked great,better than sealer even ,as far as other brands go I dont bother with anything but SPI.after 35 yrs of painting its very hard to change but I trust Barrys' word above all others,so I guess I'm still learning,and open minded enough for change with luck I'll evolve into an even better painter every year
06-02-2009 07:12 AM
brainsboy As for the cuda paint job I can not comment on that body shop, My information is based on experience where yours im guessing is based on what some hot shot painter does. Just because someone else does it doesnt make it the best choice. Unless your using all the same materials as your hot shots painters, same epoxy, same amount of reducers, same base, same urethanes, then your paint job may come out differently.

Personally I would never use epoxy as a sealer over body work and filler. As I mentioed epoxies are very sensitive to the type of material they are being sprayed over. Epoxies are also designed and developed to be sprayed directly on metal not over filler. This doesnt mean some people dont try and use it that way. Keep in mind just because some people get it to work does NOT mean they are getting as good of a bond as they would have using a sealer. Although not all epoxies are the same Im saying to use extreme caution when using it over other materials and definetly do test panels before attempting it unless this is something you do everyday and already know the epoxy will cure over the material your spraying it over.
06-01-2009 09:03 PM
52F1
Quote:
Originally Posted by djas3616
Last night I was reading the "Sick Fish" Build Book, and they were using Glasurit epoxy as the final sealer before paint.

Off the top of my head, the steps were:
1. Epoxy
2. Polyester High Build Primer
3. Poly Urethane Primer
4. Epoxy (wet sanded with 600)
5. Basecoat

The shop that did this 'Cuda was Rad Rides by Troy....could they be making a horrible mistake by sealing with epoxy if you say its a bad idea?

Absolutly NOTHING wrong with using Epoxy as a Sealer
52F1
06-01-2009 08:41 PM
djas3616
Quote:
Originally Posted by brainsboy
First NEVER apply epoxy primer over anything but metal. Many epoxy systems for example ppg's SV system doesnt like to harden over filler or some primers. The top layer will harden making you think you did a great job while a thin under linning will not harden. This layer allows the paint to peel off easily or will develop bubbles in the paint as the solvent begins to dry in the hot sun over time. So skip number 5. If you sand through to metal in some spots its ok, just use a urethane primer.

Last night I was reading the "Sick Fish" Build Book, and they were using Glasurit epoxy as the final sealer before paint.

Off the top of my head, the steps were:
1. Epoxy
2. Polyester High Build Primer
3. Poly Urethane Primer
4. Epoxy (wet sanded with 600)
5. Basecoat

The shop that did this 'Cuda was Rad Rides by Troy....could they be making a horrible mistake by sealing with epoxy if you say its a bad idea?
06-01-2009 03:30 PM
deadbodyman how you get it in bare metal isnt really that important,but getting the metal clean is, so cleaning is the key.As any one that has done lead work or even solderd will tell you,you need acid to get something really clean.thats why so many of us use ospho if it didnt work we wouldnt bother but it does so at least try it on something.I've done it many ways and the ospho first IS best.
06-01-2009 01:25 PM
brainsboy First NEVER apply epoxy primer over anything but metal. Many epoxy systems for example ppg's SV system doesnt like to harden over filler or some primers. The top layer will harden making you think you did a great job while a thin under linning will not harden. This layer allows the paint to peel off easily or will develop bubbles in the paint as the solvent begins to dry in the hot sun over time. So skip number 5. If you sand through to metal in some spots its ok, just use a urethane primer.

Epoxy primer doesnt like laquer thinner, so never use it as a reducer, use an enamel reducer. This is why I also never use laquer thinner to clean metal parts that will get epoxy primer, I always use acetone which makes the epoxy to metal really bond well.

Second use graded mixing cups to mix the epoxy and hardner, this is not a situation where you just pour it as close as you can. Epoxy is not like other paints, it needs to be exact down to the ounce and done in clean mixing cups.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jomichael
elcaminodragster,
Just so you know, I'm not a professional painter. I've been confused by this question as well and through trial and error and a lot of questions, I have boiled it down to this.
1. Media blast.
2. Clean with PRE or Lacquer Thinner.
3. Shoot Epoxy Primer.
4. Filler if necessary.
5. Add another coat of Epoxy Primer because you probably sanded off some of the epoxy to level that dent in step #4.
6. Lightly block sand with 320 or so.
7. Spray 2K Urethane primer over that for fine block sanding. Just use one system/brand if possible. I'm using Nason by Dupont simply because its available at the local auto paint store. Probably better out there, but it works.
I haven't gone beyond this point yet. Oh, if you blast some metal and don't get around to spraying it with epoxy and it flash rusts, I've used a little Phosphoric Acid to get rid of it. Spray on a rag and wipe fast, don't let it dry on the metal. Then wash again with PRE or Lacquer Thinner, then start at #3. Just keep water off the metal! I've tried these metal washes and though I might be doing it wrong, it flash rusts in front of my eyes! Maybe its the Florida humidity.

Now get ready for people to start disagreeing with me. Bring it on! I might learn some more! Ha!

Michael
55.2 chevy Napco
06-01-2009 08:58 AM
deadbodyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssaahemifan
I had trouble using SPI Epoxy and metal prep even though I scuffed the treated surface before epoxy.

I have always metal prepped every car I do. This was the first time using SPI epoxy and I had some adhesion issues.

I was going to abandon it for a different epoxy that is compatible with metal treatments ??

Maybe I don't have to???

SPI says no etch products.
Actually its not that they say no,they dont RECOMEND them.Heres why:Metal prep has to be done right,It will work with just wax& greese remover prep so barry is just playing it safe,I use SPI exclusively now,I'm that impressed with it.As for your adheasion problem:lets start with the primer,Did you let it cure?sometimes it takes a week to cure,it depends on how much build you have(I use my finger nail),if it dents the primer its not ready.Now for the metal prep part ,explain what you used and your procedure.This is THE most important part of any job so it must be done right.
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