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Topic Review (Newest First)
05-03-2010 03:36 PM
(vette)mech
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biscuit6447
after reading the entire post.... i just had to make a post.

a few replies said that the added weight of a bbc wouldn't be worth it in a 3600lb car, and that a 383 could do better...

(just making up numbers, don't hit me)

489 bbc - 600hp, 550lb/ft (aluminum heads - 600lbs)
383sbc - 500hp, 400lb/ft (aluminum heads - 500lbs)

at the cost of 100 lbs, you are getting 20% more hp,, and 37.5% more tq


3600 + 500 = 4100lbs
3600 + 600 = 4200 lbs
weight difference = 2.4%!!!

so your saying that an added 2.4% in weight is not worth the extra 20% in hp??

do some math and figure that in mid to heavy car applications, a bbc is the OBVIOUS choice for getting it moving. just because the power to weight ratio of the motor alone is way off, doesn't mean anything for the whole combo.

My vote goes to BBC. that is why i am putting a bbc in my 3000lb car.

(but... if you are on a $2000 budget, then i guess you have no choice, or you REALLY care about gas mileage, than a bbc will be a bad choice. if you really want to go fast, BBC all the way!)
I am new and replying to an old thread but I am glad I found this because I have been considering for a couple of years whether to swap my street/strip 350 sbc for a stroked 454 big block! This thread has shown me the light! My 1990 Corvette will soon be having a Big block sat in it and I don't care how long it takes or how much I have to modify the hood and I do not care about extra weight of a Big block because if I do worry about the extra weight of a Big block then theres no point me having an extra passenger as they will just weigh as the differnce or more
04-29-2010 12:49 PM
EPI Pro Racing
Big Block 454

What I would do is use the 454 BB and install higher compression pistons and Holley multipoint fuel injection with a tunnel ram or bug catcher its all up to you with 11.5 - 1 cr pistons and the tunnel ram fuel injection this motor depending on the stroke and heads you select could make any where from 600 to 900 horsepower
02-16-2010 12:50 PM
72bluemalibu
bbc vs sbc

Thought i'd throw in my 2 cents. I have a 3600 lb car. I'm am currently running a 383 stroker. Chassis dyno at 350 hp 345 lb/ft torque to the tires. It has 373 gears and a 2800 rpm stall. The car is quick, not a rocket ship but quick. Well I went out and bought a 468 BBC. I'm going to install it in a few weeks. Computer dyno software puts it at 550 hp 586 lb/ft of torque + or - 2% at the crank. Just numbers anyway. Nothing radical just a nice grocery getter. In my opinion torque rules on the street. People are right about the cost factor. I'll let you know how it turns out in a couple of weeks. Hopefuly I won't be disappointed.
02-11-2010 08:00 PM
Biscuit6447
bugging me....

after reading the entire post.... i just had to make a post.

a few replies said that the added weight of a bbc wouldn't be worth it in a 3600lb car, and that a 383 could do better...

(just making up numbers, don't hit me)

489 bbc - 600hp, 550lb/ft (aluminum heads - 600lbs)
383sbc - 500hp, 400lb/ft (aluminum heads - 500lbs)

at the cost of 100 lbs, you are getting 20% more hp,, and 37.5% more tq


3600 + 500 = 4100lbs
3600 + 600 = 4200 lbs
weight difference = 2.4%!!!

so your saying that an added 2.4% in weight is not worth the extra 20% in hp??

do some math and figure that in mid to heavy car applications, a bbc is the OBVIOUS choice for getting it moving. just because the power to weight ratio of the motor alone is way off, doesn't mean anything for the whole combo.

My vote goes to BBC. that is why i am putting a bbc in my 3000lb car.

(but... if you are on a $2000 budget, then i guess you have no choice, or you REALLY care about gas mileage, than a bbc will be a bad choice. if you really want to go fast, BBC all the way!)
02-11-2010 07:20 AM
ap72
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I totally agree that $/HP is a poor comparison or yard stick.

It make more sense to use that type thing when comparing modifications or bolt-ons that are for increasing the power on an engine that's already together.

The car rags are great at doing a $150 mod (CC just did this very thing) to gain less than 1 HP.

They swapped carb bodies to make a 650 a 750, to gain something like .6 (as in 6/10) HP! It could have just as easily LOST .6 HP depending on the dyno, if they'd have made another pull...

Not a very good return on the money spent. But to hear them tell it, all was just dandy- ProForm being an advertiser and all.
They wouldhave gained more power by putting that $150 towrds chrome goodies, a GM dress up kit is worth at least 30hp on some of those mag's dynos.
02-11-2010 07:06 AM
cobalt327 I totally agree that $/HP is a poor comparison or yard stick.

It make more sense to use that type thing when comparing modifications or bolt-ons that are for increasing the power on an engine that's already together.

The car rags are great at doing a $150 mod (CC just did this very thing) to gain less than 1 HP.

They swapped carb bodies to make a 650 a 750, to gain something like .6 (as in 6/10) HP! It could have just as easily LOST .6 HP depending on the dyno, if they'd have made another pull...

Not a very good return on the money spent. But to hear them tell it, all was just dandy- ProForm being an advertiser and all.
02-10-2010 12:17 PM
killerformula Welp, we have a nice snow day here and so had some time on my hands to poke around in this old thread. Nearly 8 years old! Wow. A lot of these older threads are great because they address some of the more basic questions of hotrodding like "big vs small block" "Ford vs Chevy" "Holley vs Edelbrock" etc.

Anyway its an interesting read. Not sure if its full of great information, but at least entertaining!

Back on page 2, and probably 7 years ago, somebody posted this:

Quote:
A good example would be to compare a big block and a small block engine with nearly the same horsepower and torque.

I did some calculations based on engine size, horsepower and cost of the engine by dividing the cost of the crate engine by the horsepower output. The results are interesting. This calculation gives you a cost per horsepower.

Chevy 502ci Ram Jet, 502hp/567ft-lb of tq cost $7095 = $14.13 per hp

Chevy ZZ 502ci base kit, 502hp/567ft-lb of tq cost $5850 = $11.65 per hp


Chevy 383 stroker, 325hp/415ft-lb of tq cost $3975 = 11.31 per hp

Chevy Ram Jet 350ci, 350hp/400ft-lb of tq cost $4525 = $12.93 per hp

Chevy 502ci, 338hp/512ft-lb of tq cost $5295 = $15.67 per hp

Chevy 350ci HO, 330hp/380ft-lb of tq cost $2495 = $7.56 per hp

The last crate motor listed as the Chevy 350ci HO is the best bang for the buck.
These are particularly bad data. This model only really works if cost per H.P. on any platform is linear, and its clearly not. Of course the lowest horsepower/torque motors have the highest ratio of horspower per dollar. By that end, you could rebuild a 90's 350 with all stock components for 1200 dollars and end up with 250 horse. What's that, 5 dollars per horse? Show me a 500-600 horse 350, then we'll look at comparable dollars per horse.

As you go upwards in torque and horsepower numbers, you need vastly more rigid parts, better engineered heads, forced induction or the like. With relatively stock, off-the-shelf components, obviously you can get into the 5 and 600 range with a big block more reliably and probably more cheaply than with a small block.

Although its not the target of this thread, it also overlooks the fact that there are a mountain of reasons to choose to build a smallblock or a bigblock rather than just dollars per horse.

Just a thought...

K
02-10-2010 09:26 AM
cobalt327
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72
I ouldn't say the design was right at all.
You march to the beat of a Moog, not a drum.
02-10-2010 09:13 AM
ap72 I ouldn't say the design was right at all. The only thing chevy 350's have going for them is HUGE production numbers. As LS engines go down in price the sbc will die hard and fast IMO. There is nothing a gen 1 can do that a gen 3/4 can't do better. The only reason the gen 1 is holding on is because of cost, but that will change in the next 5 years.
02-10-2010 08:37 AM
cobalt327 Well, one thing's for sure- 500 HP is the "new" 400 HP engine. The 'standard' HP of our street engines has escalated- along w/the displacement. 350 = 383, 454= 496, 302W= 347, 460= 514, etc.

I hate to say this- but it's mainly due to cheap off shore parts that've flooded the scene. But right along w/those cheap parts are all the high quality US-born and bred cylinder heads that are the actual fuel for this fire, IMHO.

But even if it weren't for the cheap Chinese parts, I'd like to think that we'd be heading in that direction anyway. To 'keep up' w/the current crop of LS-x engines that are getting more and more plentiful and less expensive, this has to be, IMHO.

A cammed up 6L LS engine w/the L92 heads- w/no other major mods- will make a streetable (as in granny can drive it) 500 HP all day long, w/o so much as breaking a sweat.

But I'm not about to count the Gen I's out quite yet. I believe they will hold on for a lot longer than the flatty did when the SBC (and the other "high compression" OHV engines) came out, some 50-odd years ago.

The writing is on the wall, it's just a matter of time until the Gen I engines are depleted from the 'yards and such, but the design was just so right, that it will take a long time to erase them from the streets of America- unless the Green Police gets them...
02-10-2010 06:23 AM
ap72 I'm kinda with Cobalt, 450hp is about the cutoff. YOu can get 450hp out of a small block if you do your own work and start with a decent core for less than a grand, after that it starts to make more sense to go with a 454, over 550hp a 496 makes more sense, it all comes back to power per cubic inch. You can build 2hp/ci but it gets much more expensive than building 1.25hp/ci.

Of course if you allow running turbo's or superchargers it muddies the waters.

BTW I'll have a Guinness.
02-10-2010 05:43 AM
hannes_slanec I am with you, even a low budget kit as shown below for as less as
US $1,249.99
will get the job done.

This might or might not be the right material for a race engine but will replace
for sure that old worn out, lame 1976 Caprice 454/225HP rotating asseblmy.

You got a totally new rebuild engine that make 5-600HP with ease and one that can withstand that power since you got a fully forged rotating assembly.

Why to spend 7000-8000 up for a wild SBC which will not take less gas because of the wild cam???



(Description)

ALL FORGED 454 / 502 / 540 BIG BLOCK CHEVY ENGINE KIT / STROKER KIT!!



Need to freshen up your BBC... this is the kit!!! This auction is for all brand new parts- HawksRacing Forged Steel Crank, 4340 forged H-beam rods with ARP Bolts, Premium Forged Pistons/Rings/King 'H' Race bearings. This kit is brand new no .010/.010 offset ground crap, like some kits you find... this is new STD/STD.
This kit uses stock main journals (see cart), and stock BBC rod journals and will slip right into your Big Block (some strokers will require clearance).

CRANK

*

CNC Machine for "Competition" Quality and tolerance
*

Quality Forged Steel construction
*

All Journals micro polished to 5rms finish
*

Rounded Crank Throws for superior windage
*

Generous throw radii for superior strength
*

Magnafluxed, x-rayed, Sonic Tested Nitride, Shot-Peened and Stress-Relieved
*

Balanced to exceed OEM specs (kits require balance, we can do it)
*

Large chamfered oiling holes for better lubrication
*

Legendary quality for lasting durability and performance



RODS

BRAND NEW SET (8 rods) (see chart for lengths) 4340 FORGED steel, CNC Machined H-BEAM connecting rods for your BB Chevy engine. These rods are Certified 4340 Steel, vacuum degassed to remove impurities, designed for light weight without sacrificing strength. Each rod is Magnafluxed, x-rayed, and sonic tested to ensure the best quality. They are CNC machined, shot-peened and stress-relieved and set weight matched to +/- 2 grams. They have 8740 ARP Cap Screws and are bushed for full-floating pistons with A18 bronze bushings (see chart). The ends are stock BB Chevy size, so you don't have to worry about them fitting properly or having to buy "special" parts to make them work.



Kits Include:

*

HawksRacing Forged Crank 2/pc rear seal (see chart for stroke)
*

Premium Forged pin fit Pistons, Pins, Race proven locks (see chart for application details and C/R)
*

4340 Forged H-Beam Bushed Rods (see chart for lengths)
*

Premium King 'H' Series Race rod/main bearings
*

Premium Quality Ring Set
*
02-09-2010 05:07 PM
DoubleVision I`ll have a Coors Original.
02-09-2010 03:09 PM
cobalt327
Quote:
Originally Posted by hannes_slanec
Everybody is talking about stroker-kits for SBC but no one considers stroking the big boys.

496 , 522 , 540 , 572 ...-Kits have all the same price.
The way I see it, a 496 is damn near a no-brainer when it comes to rebuilding a 454.

Even if the crank wasn't trashed, for not a whole lot more you can have that extra displacement. And if the crank IS toast- or even 30/30-, I wouldn't even think twice. I'd build it as a 496.

Quote:
men drink beer
Make mine a Busch.
02-09-2010 03:39 AM
DoubleVision Must be good wine considering I did that post in 2008.
I`m a poor man, poor men drink beer.
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