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Topic Review (Newest First)
12-20-2009 08:09 PM
gto_ron
trunk lid problems

You're right, DB-man. What we had here was a failure to communicate: mine. It WAS Clint Eastwood. I didn't know my limitations, I've got to watch some more old movies.

Ron
12-20-2009 02:18 PM
deadbodyman I thought that was Clint Eastwood? I'll bet you fit the panels before you paint that rag top.
12-20-2009 12:14 PM
gto_ron
trunk lid problems

Thank you all for the advice.

I finally got the deck lid fitted to where it's acceptable: not perfect, but OK. I needed a combination of slotting the holes in the brackets so I had more side-to-side movement, adding a shim at the front of each mount bracket and getting the final adjustment with the latch. I had to strong-arm(tweak) the lever arms also. I really appreciate the tips I received, I used them all.

I've gotten to be a decent painter but need more experience panel-fitting. Like Struther Martin said in Cool Hand Luke : "a man has got to know his limitations..", I'm working on mine.

I hope all Forum members have a Great Christmas and a happy New Year!

Ron
64 Goat ragtop in progress
12-18-2009 06:54 AM
deadbodyman thats a nice paint job.have you solved the problem? It looks to me like the deck is a bit bigger than the hole it fits into. since you know the deck didnt get bigger the hole must have got smaller. you may have to do the best you can and live with it.you can always reslot the latch holes bigger for more adjustment of the latch...but its gonna be tight.
09-27-2009 10:06 AM
MARTINSR I just walked out and looked at the rear gate on my nephews "new" 1978 El Camino, and sure enough, the factory used shims to align the gate.

Brian
09-27-2009 10:00 AM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by gto_ron
Sorry I missed the dialogue but I've been away from the computer and the garage for a while( grandkids ).

1. To answer Brian's questions, yes the trunk seal is installed. It's made by A&M Sof-Seal, I think they're a quality product but I'll let others on the Forum add their opinion. The seal is installed correctly; I know this because it took me an hour to figure out which way it went, both ways looked right so I checked the shop manual.

Ron
Just to give you some idea of what this rubber should look like to be SURE you got it right. Check out the photos. You will see that the rubber does get smashed down a LOT by the lid and after staying there a while will stay smashed down. Mine is Soffseal

One photo shows a shim, a very thin 1/32" shim to get my lid PERFECT.

This is the thing, shims ARE used on trunks these days, I have seen shims on hoods and trunks on late model cars. When our "A" Bodies were built, perfection was NOT on the agenda. "Close" was good enough, between my brother and I we have owned 10 of these 1965 Skylarks (most of them Gran Sports) and none of them had the panel fit of the worse car you would see coming off the line today.

So to get things perfect, shims are a good way to go.

Brian
09-27-2009 07:32 AM
deadbodyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
Deadman, listen, I don't know what to say. You are right, we all do things different. I personally would have made the mounting adjustable on that lid and no bending of hinges would have been needed. On the Camaro, it is supported ALL WRONG for cutting all that structure out it's no wonder there were panel fit problems! HOLY CRAP, you're lucky it didn't narrow the car by a foot the way it's supported!

Think about this, how could raising or lower the quarter have anything to do with the relation between the hinge and the lid on that car?

You are way over complicating this, the car is painted, shim the friggin lid and get on with life!

Building a car from scratch or modifying it is a whole different thing. Restoring a car from bare metal, it's a whole differnet story. Are you kidding me? If I were doing this car in pre-filler stage I would grab a hold of that lid and bend the %$#^ out of it and be done with it. But that can't be done here. If I were doing it pre-filler I would think nothing of grabbing my spoon and hammer and whacking it up or down along the edges to make the thing fit perfect, that can't be done here.

Brian
brian ,this might be a little off topic but still something might still be learned first where would you suggest supporting the car when replacing the frame rails? and second what you might not see is the frame connectors for drag racing made of 1/4" square stock that wernt removed untill everythig was done...without the frame rails or 1/4's there just a thin piece of steel at the top of the 1/4's that if someone leaned on would cause it to drop ..therefore the deck would still be at the right posistion but looking like it was too high ,the cure was to raise the drivers 1/4up 1/2"till every thing lined back up nothing at all to do with the hinges...last but not least every part of this car was painted off the car and assembled with no help it fits perfectly with better than factory gaps and not even a scratch....BUT it was put together and taken apart untill every part just fell on not one shim either ...now I realize I can be a little anal about a few things and shims just happens to be one of them the camero does have the factory shims in the tops and bottoms of the fenders but thats factory and like I said I've never seen a shim in a factory door or a deck lid and personaly find it totaly unnecesary to put them there so if you see a shim in a door or a deck its NOT factory. But I'm only talking as far back as 46 and I'm only talking about the doors and decks ,the front sheet metal on all most older cars are loaded with them but just the front. But I am curious as to where you would support the camero since its done now and assembly only took a day with no problems at all ,I'm always interested in making the work a little easier.LOL and thanks for the typing tip I'm getting much better(two fingers and a thumb)I know you work at a body shop but in the shop or in the office?
09-27-2009 07:03 AM
deadbodyman After three frame offs,your something more that a hobbist.Us pros will dissagree at times but it sure get you guys thinking...Dont it? did the deck fit good before the seal was installed?
09-27-2009 06:59 AM
shine the square shim will almost hide when installed and comes in different thickness. brian is right, most cars from the 60/70's are full of them. nothing wrong with using them, that's why they are made.
09-27-2009 12:44 AM
MARTINSR This is a shim, your car is likely full of them on the front sheetmetal bolts.

This one is actually for wheel alignment purposes because it has the little "handle" on it. Fender shims don't have that handle but for some reason I couldn't find a photo of one. Personally, I see no difference in using the washer other than it is round instead of square. And, for that matter I have gotten washers and cut them with tin snips to make what ever shape you want. Take a large fender washer and then cut off two sides and you have a shim perfect for the lid.

Brian

09-26-2009 09:26 PM
gto_ron
trunk problems

Sorry I missed the dialogue but I've been away from the computer and the garage for a while( grandkids ).

1. To answer Brian's questions, yes the trunk seal is installed. It's made by A&M Sof-Seal, I think they're a quality product but I'll let others on the Forum add their opinion. The seal is installed correctly; I know this because it took me an hour to figure out which way it went, both ways looked right so I checked the shop manual.

2. I've learned my lesson about not painting the car until all the panels are fitted. Actually when this car was in primer I laid the trunk lid in the opening just to check that the lid fit OK between the quarters and was satisfied with the gaps. I realize now I should have installed the hinges and bolted the lid to them for the fit-check. I've done several frame-off restorations( 60's GM A-bodies) and this is the first one I've had so much trouble with. I guess I got lucky on the previous ones.

3. What kind of shims are we talking about? I have been using washers and didn't realize it mattered until Shine mentioned it.

I realize there are some conflicting opinions on this thread but I really appreciate the responses and take each one very seriously. As a hobbyist I depend on info from the Forum plus what I've learned from my mistakes( expensive!)

again thanks for all responses


regards

Ron
09-26-2009 10:24 AM
MARTINSR Deadman, listen, I don't know what to say. You are right, we all do things different. I personally would have made the mounting adjustable on that lid and no bending of hinges would have been needed. On the Camaro, it is supported ALL WRONG for cutting all that structure out it's no wonder there were panel fit problems! HOLY CRAP, you're lucky it didn't narrow the car by a foot the way it's supported!

Think about this, how could raising or lower the quarter have anything to do with the relation between the hinge and the lid on that car?

You are way over complicating this, the car is painted, shim the friggin lid and get on with life!

Building a car from scratch or modifying it is a whole different thing. Restoring a car from bare metal, it's a whole differnet story. Are you kidding me? If I were doing this car in pre-filler stage I would grab a hold of that lid and bend the %$#^ out of it and be done with it. But that can't be done here. If I were doing it pre-filler I would think nothing of grabbing my spoon and hammer and whacking it up or down along the edges to make the thing fit perfect, that can't be done here.

Brian
09-26-2009 10:11 AM
MARTINSR Just so everyone is clear about how the shim will LOWER the lid, check out the attached sketch...

Just as if you ROTATE the hood hinge on one of these cars to raise and lower the hood it will raise or lower it WAY more than simply raising the hinge up or down on the fender. Shimming the trunk hinge will effectively "rotate" the angle notation to the axis of the hinge and raise or LOWER the lid.

http://www.isner.com/tutorials/quatS..._spells_14.htm

At least that is how I understand what is happening.

Brian
09-26-2009 09:37 AM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman
OK ,so I retract my shim statement...the mans deck is alresdy sitting to high so shims will do nothing but make it worse anyway... and we'll be argueing a point about opinions that wont help him at all......so back to the point.... dissassemble all connecting hardware hinges & latch etc...Place the deck in the hole ,if the fit is good and gaps can be acceptable adjust hight with the bumpers.....(use masking tape to hold it in place)...if you can get it to fit like like this.....your ok ,no bent hinges and the deck isnt twisted now all you got to do is move the hinges to the deck (by what ever means you find fitting) removing torsion bars or springs will be a big help(reinstall them after the latch) for an easier job. Ok so once the hinges have been adjusted to the posision of the deck,the latch should just fall in place,adjust it by simply latching it to to deck (while opend),close the deck,tape it in position,have the midget tighten the latch from the inside."Simple" no need for shims or beating it with a sledge hammer (hehehe) we've come a long way since those day's (I thought) But all & all you've learned a good leason on fit & finish allways fit before you finish....You wont forget this lesson so its a win win

Deadman, I am sorry buddy but you are all wrong on this and are complicating it beyond the moon.

You CAN shim the lid LOWER. This one is high at the rear, shim it lower. And the "bumpers" aren't adjustable! It has quarter sized rubber bumpers that are about a quarter inch thick that stick thru holes in the in the deck lid with a little arrow pointie thing hanging on the back. That is it, no screw type adjustment like on a hood.

And the hinges aren't adjustable at all and in fact as I remember don't even bolt in! They use one pin going thru a welded in piece on the underside of the upper rear panel thru the end of the hinge, NO adjustment.

So you shim the lid at the hinge to bring the front down and then put the striker up or down to adjust the rear.

Edit: By the way Ron, one thing that I don't remember seeing being mentioned by you is if the trunk rubber SEAL has been installed!

If you are using a bad trunk seal all bets are off on this alignment!

Some brands are WAY too thick (hell, I had an NOS original GM one that I was planning on using that was JUNK and WAY to thick!) and will hold the lid up.

If you installed the rubber in there wrong, it could cause you fits with the lid as well. As you round the corners up in the front it wants to roll in and it is REAL easy to screw it up. What I did on my Gran Sport was to tape it down with masking tape so the "flap" of the rubber was down around the corner. After it sat with the lid shut on it for a week or so I was able to remove the tape and it stayed where it belonged.

So tell me, have you installed the rubber and what brand was it?

Brian
09-26-2009 09:31 AM
deadbodyman shims (shivers) also work well with old wooden boats...as the timbers swell and contract they are shimmed to take up the slack hence the expression "shiver me timbers" state of the art technology back then..if I see a car with shims in the doors or the deck I'll walk on by and buy something else and remember that dealers name and never waste my time looking at another one of his cars...I'm just a new guy(35 yrs) but I've never seen a shim in a factory door or deck...Fenders ,yes but they cant be seen..If a cars older and has no adjustments I'll make them adjustable and let everyone ask "how'd you do that"? Some I'll tell...the ones that'll listen.I put 2000 grand am deck hinges in my 48 plymouth with 4 gas filled holder uppers useing this method...it works ....and no shims.But thats besides the point the first step when a problem like this arises is to see if it fits without any obstructions the choice of how to make it fit all depends on this and is up to you and your abilities...even if a shim is painted black there will be the tell tail gap between the deck and the hinge...if your deck still has a 1/4" on one side and 1/8" on the other it may be twisted and can be twisted back and lifting it till it bends the inner structure is also a pretty good way to get the deck back down but you could be in for a lot of trouble if you dont check the fit without anything holding it on FIRST... It could also be the 1/4s are not right so start at the beginning and dont assume ANYTHING....Keep this in mind 75% of all cars have damage before thier 5yrs old so imagine how much hidden damage can be found in an older car.This car(camero) had the same problem ..the rear of the deck was up 1/2" and the cause was due to someone leaning on it while the quarter's were off..The deck wasnt up at all ,the coner of the car was down....wierd things happen...you can see how it was fixed...The burn marks on the grand am hinges I put on the 48 are clearly visible and show where the heat was applied to the hinges,the heat never got close to the inner skin because I was carefull and did it before paint.... hinges can also be bent cold by supporting the curve of the hinge with a 2x4 cut at the proper length... then lifting or pushing the deck...the latch is the least of your trouble....
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