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Topic Review (Newest First)
11-14-2009 10:17 PM
bobbyv Honestly, this is why I spend most of my time "lurking" in forums. I've had a similar experience on the HAMB. It just takes the fun out of it. I don't know if there was previous bad blood, but it seemed to go from 0 to 100 instantly. Unfortunate.
11-14-2009 02:24 PM
DanTwoLakes I am going to comment on this for the last time, and then I'm taking some time off the board. I AM SPEAKING IN GENERALITIES........THIS IS IN NO WAY AIMED AT ANY ONE PERSON.
You may think that I just hang around on the Interior forum, but I pay a lot of attention to the Body-Exterior section too. There used to be a group of pros there that were willing to give freely of their knowledge and expertise, but slowly, one by one they have almost disappeared. These guys do body work and painting for a living, just like I do upholstery work for a living. If we make a mistake, and have to do something over, it cuts into our bottom line. If we make enough mistakes and have to keep doing things over all the time, eventually we'll be out of business. If the hobbyist makes a mistake, it will cost him some money, but not his livelihood. When we give answers to a question, it's not a guess. It is information that if followed correctly will solve your problem. For every way you know how to do something, we know two or three or even more ways to do it. What frustrates me, and the pros in the Body -Exterior section, is that we're trying to help you not make mistakes in the first place, the advice goes unheeded, and then you come back on the board and say "I did it like Joe Blow said to do it and it didn't come out right. How do I fix it". "And by the way, I didn't read the paint can, I used a different brand of reducer, and I sprayed 8 thin coats within 15 minutes."
Here's another thing to remember: I am human, just like all of you, and I occasionally have a bad day. Sometimes that gets reflected in my answers. Sorry about that, but it's still nothing personal towards you, and I'm sorry for the irreparable damage I caused to your self worth.
And lastly, If you come on here, ask a question and get an answer, you are by no means obligated to do it that way. Do it however you want to do it, I don't care. It seems pretty silly to me to have a resource like a professional whatever to ask questions of and then ignore the answer you get, but that's just my misguided thinking. I think if some of you called the bomb squad and got an answer to de-fusing a bomb you'd still do it your way.
You want to call me a know it all, or an ego maniac, or a Prima Donna, or an arrogant jerk for having the answers to your questions and taking my valuable time to share them with you, then I think it's you who have the problem and not me. I'm good at what I do, I'm proud of it, I know how to teach people to do it, and I will never apologize to anyone for that. I'll see you in a while.........maybe.
11-14-2009 11:25 AM
cboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by 302 Z28
... quite the contrary he is always one of the first responders to offer advise when a question is asked.
Since I was the OP in this thread and was involved in the direction of the discussion, I'd like to chime in here to agree with much of what Vince has said. D2L is almost always a "first responder" and there is no doubt in anyone's mind that he has the experience and knowledge to provide good solid answers to newbies and seasoned veterans alike. He has been a huge asset to HR.Com and the most particularly, the Interior Forum. I've said that publicly on many occasions and I haven't changed my mind since.

Vince is also right that Moderators have opinions just like any member here. And they have the right to express them freely and openly. Dan did that in this particular thread and he was well within his authority to do so. In general, I don't condone a Moderator participating in the "opinion" side of a thread and then suddenly putting their mod hat on to take disciplinary action against someone they are debating, but that isn't the case here. And while some of us may take offense at the language and style of Dan's response(s), that has nothing to do with his position or abilities as a moderator

Clearly I would not have chosen the particular approach or language in the posts aimed at me, but I can understand Dan's frustration with folks who might not follow his advice or his methods to the letter. I'm one of those people. Anyone who has followed my builds knows I don't always take the conventional route or do things according to the book. This can drive perfectionists absolutely bonkers. I know I drive Dan bonkers. And that might have contributed to the tone and tenor of some of the posts found here.

It's all part of hot rodding in my book. We are a bunch of individualist. We like to do things our own way. And we're willing to argue about it pretty loudly and pretty strenuously.

On the other hand I can see FordSR's point that some newbies might be put off by the direct and somewhat stern language Dan might use from time to time. But from my point of view, that sort of tact can serve as a major wake up call as well. And in my case it did just that. Obviously I'm not everybody, but Dan's admonitions woke me up and got me motivated to do this project to the utmost level I can achieve. It might not always be Dan's level, or Dan's techniques, or Dan's methods, but if I have anything to do with it, NO ONE will ever call it a disaster again. Not even a master craftsman.
11-14-2009 11:19 AM
OneMoreTime Ok guys I will weigh in and say there is such a thing as "Good Enough" I do not think any of us will ever get to "perfection" as there is always something that we can learn..So lets forget the perfection and do the best we know how with what we have..Nuff said...

Sam
11-14-2009 10:27 AM
302 Z28 Dear fordSR: It is my considered OPINION that you are off base with the criticism of Dan. I am also a Moderator on this site, but that is not why I'm sticking up for Dan. I just can't stand to see this sort of thing taking place here. Everyone on this site is expected to have an opinion except for the Moderators, did I read that right?

I have seen nothing in all of Dan's posts that indicate anything you have accused him of, quite the contrary he is always one of the first responders to offer advise when a question is asked.

In the future I would suggest that you keep the thread topic on subject and if you do not have anything positive to contribute leave the personal attacks to either PM's or keep them to yourself.

Cheers
Vince
11-14-2009 09:53 AM
DanTwoLakes Thank you , Jim for that candid assessment. I have always tried to post what I think is interesting or different, and what I think will help the original poster with whatever project he or she is working on. I have never proclaimed myself anything other than a professional upholsterer with a lot of experience in many different areas. As far as "prolific" posting, there are guys on here with 10,000 posts and I have about 2,700. As far as being opinionated, I have opinions just like everyone else, so I guess maybe I am. I have tried to pass on what I know to people who have no upholstery experience to the best of my ability, and explain things in a way that is as simple and easy to follow as I could make it so they could complete whatever project they were working on. I have tried to do that without ever calling anybody names or telling them they were stupid. I have answered every PM question anyone has ever sent me. I don't hide my e-mail address or my phone number, and people are welcome to call me or e-mail me any time. I'm sorry you think I have turned this into some exercise in vanity on my part, that was not my intention.
11-14-2009 06:59 AM
fordSR Dan,
When you first started posting on HR, your contributions were beneficial to the furum along with the other professional stitchers who were posting at that time. Since you became moderator you have been successful in running off just about everyone but the newbee's with your attitude and ego. Since you are a self proclaimed "master" you seem to feel that your way is the best way and any other method is "wrong" and you will continue to brow-beat any poster who may disagree until they leave the forum.

You and I have not had any issues on the forum, in fact I supported you in the beginning. I have changed my opinion since then. You will notice I have not posted here in a long time, but I visit here just about every day. I have watched you turn this into the DanTwoLakes forum with your prolific and opioniated posting, which frankly turn me off and I suspect many others as well.

I'm posting this because it just needed to be said.

Jim
11-13-2009 06:16 PM
DanTwoLakes If you knew anything about the situation, you'd know it has very little to do with foam.
11-13-2009 03:49 PM
jkrestorationllc all this cause of foam! haha
11-13-2009 12:35 PM
cboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTwoLakes
I'm sorry for wounding your ego.
Quite the contrary. I owe you a debt of gratitude. You raised my motivation level for this project by a factor of about 10.
11-13-2009 09:36 AM
454 Rattler It seems to me that there are only three reasons to be on HR.com

1...To Learn

2...To Offer Help

3...To Be Entertained


I think that nasty comments should be kept to ourselves and NOT posted here.

The original post was in my email this morning. I must say I was a bit surprised at what had been posted.

I suggest that the "dirty laundry and personal problems" with other members be kept to ourselves.

I'm tired of seeing some of these threads becoming " pissing matches" between a couple of members.


454 RATTLER
11-13-2009 09:16 AM
DanTwoLakes I edit all my posts, for spelling, wording, and especially when I think I've made a stupid incendiary statement. That quote was not intended for public consumption because it was written at the end of a very bad day, and all my frustration from the day was in that sentence. I edited it out because it was nasty and disrespectful. Thanks for dragging it out so you could show everyone what a jerk I am. Maybe I should give everyone my take on why you are doing the upholstery work yourself.
You talk about my "methods". They are no different from the things you found in the books you read, they are tried and true methods that all upholsterers use.
You asked a question, and I answered it to the best of my ability and knowledge. I'm sorry for wounding your ego.
11-13-2009 08:05 AM
cboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTwoLakes
... I have posted tons of information on this subject, but you don't seem to have read any of it. You have read everything ever printed from anybody who has ever gotten a book published on car interiors, but you take everything I tell you as tainted in some way.
Dan has articulated some very accurate observations and leveled some well deserved criticism of my upholstery efforts thus far. He is absolutely correct. I have read a number of books published on upholstery, paying special attention to those that came most highly recommended by our members here on HR.Com. These included "Custom Auto Interiors" by Taylor and Mangus, "Auto Upholstery & Interiors" by Bruce Caldwell, "How to Restore and Customize Auto Upholstery" by Dennis Parks, and "Automotive Upholstery Handbook" by Don Taylor.

Research and reading come as an old habit for me, particularly when tackling some new area of hot rodding. Together with hands on experimentation and testing, it's a difficult habit for me to break. And I apologize for that.

Unfortunately when one gathers together a large number of authors and "experts", the advice can sometime be conflicting. And I apologize to Dan for any slight that may have been caused by the attention I may have paid to the books and authors named above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTwoLakes
...I guarantee that I have BY FAR more upholstery credentials than any of the people whose books you have read. I CAN'T HELP YOU IF YOU WON'T LISTEN TO ME...
Again, my apologies to Dan for any instance where there may have been conflicting recommendations among the experts and I failed to give his methods the degree of attention he feels they deserve. This was a clear oversight on my part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTwoLakes
...There are certain things you just can't learn out of a book, especially when you have a vehicle like yours that is unique, and nobody has ever tried to upholster one before.... You can't learn world class upholstery from a book without somebody standing right next to you while you're learning.
Once again, a very accurate observation. Unfortunately very few of us have the luxury of a full time upholstery coach who can stand over our shoulder and tutor us at each step. Most of us muddle along by reading, asking questions of others, conducting test and experiments with the materials at hand, and practicing the techniques and methods we need to master.

This is how I've made my way through every other part of building a car from scratch. And the good people of many other HR.Com forums have always been willing to happily help answer my questions and guide me along the way. Folks in "suspension", "engines", "paint and exterior" and the general rodding forums have been more than welcoming to my rudimentary questions and my occasional misstep. So "interior" has been a new experience for me. It is the first forum where I've encountered outright hostility to my questions and my musings. Obviously I have a lot to lean regarding how to conduct myself here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTwoLakes
...You haven't even been able to get a simple curved corner on a small insert panel right (post 11), and that is a baby step. The panel you show in post #11 should have not been spliced anywhere, the outside perimeter should have been one piece and then there would have been no problem with a splice showing.
In the past, in other forums and my journal, I have been quite willing to take pictures and share with others my tests, my experiments and my early efforts, letting others see my failures, warts and all. My thinking was that by seeing my mistakes and missteps, others could avoid them and learn at my expense rather than theirs. Perhaps that thinking is wrong and I shouldn't post up those errors and make them subject to belittlement and ridicule.

The panel referenced in post #11 is just such practice panel. It was in a series of practice panels I documented in my journal beginning at entry #442 here. And you are right to belittle and ridicule the effort. It was my very first attempt at building such a panel...ever.

Unlike the Masters here in "Interior", the rest of us have to start somewhere. And I prefer starting with test panels, like the one in post #11, using leftover or discarded materials and push the envelop a bit to see the results of things like slicing and butting those corners. I learned a great deal from that first panel. Granted, to the eyes of a Master, it is a POS. But to my eyes, it was a thing of beauty, like the little child's plaster of Paris ash tray with his hand-print in the center of it. Only a parent could see it as art. And only a parent recognizes it as a first step in a long long learning process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTwoLakes
...And I promise you this, I'm not spending the rest of my life answering your posts trying to keep you from making a gigantic mess out of this vehicle's interior. You're way beyond that point already.
This quote was originally part of Dan's post #12 which appeared here. It was later edited out but I include it here because it is another well deserved criticism of my efforts. We novices and newbies often forget what a nuisance we can be with our pesky questions and our erroneous assumptions. And what a huge favor we are granted when one of the Masters here takes the time to entertain our inquiries. And I have been quite guilty in my past failures to properly thank all these fine folks who keep me from blowing myself up.

And it is always good medicine to get a wake up call letting you know you are "well beyond...making a gigantic mess" of your project. In fact, I think I will inscribe those words on a big plaque and mount it on the wall of my shop. Just a constant reminder that I am forever learning...and forever just muddling along.
11-12-2009 08:04 PM
DanTwoLakes Right on, Brother.
11-12-2009 07:55 PM
douglee25 Agreed. If a joint can be avoided, definitely do so.

Doug
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