|01-31-2017 10:04 AM|
|jokerZ71||the concerns you're builder may be concerned with about the KB pistons creating more heat is not a big deal.The piston doesn't get any hotter.It actually will run cooler temps.The issue is that the top ring land is higher & closer to the heat source,therefore,the ring will see more heat.To prevent the rings from butting together,recommended gaps are wider for these pistons vs the stock piston.As long as you follow KB's instructions & have proper tuning without detonation,this will be absolutely no problem.The wider gap will not effect performance at all.|
|01-31-2017 09:23 AM|
While discussing piston type in your original thread,it was said by another poster that"Quote "For a stock type build,the circular dish pistons & wider quench were fine.The Vortec has these & has no problems with detonation.A D cup piston will give you no added power,or,benefits". End quote. This is true as far as it goes,but,it doesn't go far enough.The Vortec does run with a .053" quench & in most cases has no problem with detonation on 87 octane.This is because it is tuned to run on 87 octane,contain emmissions,& provide good milage.The knock sensor will pull timing when detonation is detected,so,no,it's not likely to knock.The D cup piston while maintaining the stock compression,also provides a wide flat area matched to the quench pad on the Vortec heads.So,the piston itself won't add power just from being there.it will provide a much more effective quench/sqish effect.This has several benefits.More complete & efficient burn.Cooler combustion temps.Better detonation resistance.All good things that will lead to better efficiency & more power.When the PCM pulls timing,the power can be dramatically decreased.You will feel it.The more detonation resistance you can engineer into the motor,the better you can tune & the PCM will be less likely to pull timing & when it must,it will pull less.This all adds up to more power,better throttle response,better efficiency.
Not a total deal breaker if you can't use them & engineer the proper quench,but,it does make a difference.A very noticeable difference.
|01-31-2017 07:26 AM|
Joker thanks for the info. This isn't easy for me to get a hold of but I am getting there.
9.5:1 suggested compression
.045 or less quench
is there a different piston you would recommend or you think the KB is the best piston for what I am trying to do? Do you know the different part numbers of the choices that you might suggest on the pistons and rings. (should I go low tension?)
I might sound a little all over the place but I am making progress.
Hope I am not a PITA
|01-31-2017 07:02 AM|
You wanna stay around 9.5:1 for that setup.The Ramjet cam has very early timing & can build excessive cylinder psi if you get past that range.Stock quench from the factory on an L31 is .053" using the .028" gaskets.While this works out ok for the factory setup & tuning,I would strongly urge you,if possible to get the quench down to .045",or,even less.Even if it slightly raises the compression to do so,it will still have better detonation resistance.You computer will pull timing if it senses knock,so,the more resistance you have to detonation,the less timing it will pull & less often.It will also allow you to tune more aggressively for better power & efficiency.Bogie & others often refer to the quench effect as "mechanical octane".A good way to look at it.
As has been mentioned,the best piston type is the flat top,or,D cup.Alot of circular dish pistons don't have a wide enough quench band to be of much help.Especially stay away from dish pistons that have a chamfer on around the outside piston top.
A lot of this will also depend on your tuning.The factory L31 tuning is geared more for milage,emmissions,& to run on 87 octane.There is a good 20 HP to be gained in tuning alone,if,you were OK with 91 octane.For 87,the tune would be milder,but,can still be improved a lot over the factory tuning.
|01-31-2017 06:43 AM|
I see this is a pretty old thread but it does touch on the in formation I am looking for. I am putting a 2002 5.7L L31 in to a 2003 chevy asrto van AWD. I am having the motor done by a family that runs a race shop that I have known for a long time. A regular motor isn't their forte but they are doing it for me. They do great work on all the race stuff they do.
They are building and assembling the motor for me with increased HP from in the neighborhood of 325 to 350.
My goal is to have a good running motor that will run on 87 octane. I am not going to race it down the street, the 4.3L just cant handle the lift with the tires I have and the weight I carry. So good milage and going down the highway easily are my objectives (with maybe a little fun from the increased performance once in a while,lol).
Going to put a GM ramjet cam # 1409739/ LS6 springs/ and Comp 787 retainers (suggested by another member of this forum)
The builder asked me what compression ratio would I be looking for to run on 87 octane?
He is going to keep the quench the same or perhaps a little less. Most of these trems are new to be but I do have a very basic understanding of what they mean.
So what should the compression ratio be and what is thought about the cam set up? Thanks for the help.
|12-21-2009 08:06 PM|
|ap72||I'm really excited for your build. If you run vortecs you can just machine what you have to be better than the SD heads.|
|12-21-2009 06:13 PM|
|Zeeb||Well, the Car Craft guys are big on the Scoggins Dickey modified iron Vortec heads, and they seem to be a value at about half the cost of Edlebrock aluminum (comments?). What I need to do is talk with the folks at Granny's, the conversion parts supplier, about the weight issue. I'm lightening the car significantly otherwise, so the iron heads may be ok. So many choices make things difficult, in a good way, so thanks all for the input. It's easy to run in circles with all the options. The top-end "kit", I figured, would keep me out of trouble, keep me from picking the wrong cam for example. Yes the car is light, and the rear-end gearing is 4.1:1, and the wheels are 15". I'm getting the point, perhaps the Edlebrock cam included in the kit is a compromise to cover a middle weight car. Since I'll be very light and have an easy-turn rear, perhaps it's not the best cam for me. Perhaps I can trade more low-end torque for HP up top. We do plan to drag the car from time to time. No need to hurry the motor because we have a lot of work to do yet on the car, mainly the wiring harness and instruments. I'm not letting myself off the hook to cc the pistons and calculate CR either, because it will be a learning experience.|
|12-21-2009 02:10 PM|
you can run 10:1 on stock iron vortecs too, especially in that light of a car.
Aluminum can tolerate more compression, but it also requires more compression to match the power of iron heads, so you really don't gain anything.
I'm not saying those heads are a bad choice, just that they won't get you the most power per dollar. Edelbrock cams aren't that great either. By getting a custom ground cam (for about the same price or maybe even less), you can pick up a lot of power.
Those parts you chose are not terrible, but if you're going to spend that much money I would do some more shopping and I would read up a lot more about waht you can do. Also, define your exact goals. At this point you're basically at ground zero and can build anything from 300-500hp at roughly the same price (give or take $500). 500hp isn't alwasy what you need though, some times off idle control is much more important, sometimes you want something that can run on 87 octane, sometimes you want something else.
Define your goals.
Good Luck on your build!
|12-21-2009 01:43 PM|
|Zeeb||Understood. I don't mind buying 92 - 93 octane, nor do I mind ditching the stock pistons. I get it that new pistons are a minor expense relative to everything else, and fortunatly I'm not so budget constrained that I would have to pass on them, what with the engine out and mostly apart, this would be the time for them. I thought I was stuck with having to keep CR close to 9 points in order to use pump gas (that's what the mags seem to preach), so the factory dished units made sense once I confirmed they were hyper., but I see how the thermal advantages of aluminum heads will allow more CR. So if flat top pistons (or another design with less volume than stock) running 10:1 or so, with aluminum heads, will make for a stout, and reliable engine on 92 octane, we'll do it. It's all good. BTW, the Edlebrock top-end kit I was referring to is not fuel injected, it's simply a set of their 170cc alum. "Vortec" heads, an RPM "Gap" intake manifold, cam, timing set, and some gaskets. Edlebrock claims 435 hp on a 9.5 CR roller-cam 350 with that set of goodies installed. Plan is to have a bottom-end that will safly get the most out of my further investments (even if Edlebrock's claims are a bit idealized), and you guys are a big help. This is a wonderful forum, full of eager to help type people. I try to dig up facts before I post; if i don't do a great job of that, your patience is appreciated. Here's what me and my 15 year old son, Wesley, are up to (I'm 52, going on 18 I think). Check out the pic, you'll see in the foreground the hood of a supercharged Mazda Miata that we run on club lapping days at road courses, its looking out of my garage at an '88 RX-7 being preped for a SBC and TH2004R (yes I know the chain is not supposed to come out the front of the hoist, but it's heavily reinforced all around and I needed the extra couple of inches). Not a classic hot rod, I know, but Chevy-power none the less. This swap is popular. Check out "granny's speed shop" on line if interested. Thanks!|
|12-21-2009 12:39 PM|
Now you're thinking of an aluminum head. An aluminum head gives off heat at a rate much higher than cast iron, so if you don't bump up the overall compression ratio to something like 10 or 10.5, you will end up with less power than a cast iron head at 9 or 9.5 to 1. And even if you stick with an iron head the squish/quench needs to be fixed. So I'd surly put the fancy Edlebrock fuel injection in the can and start worrying about basics first. Wiz bang toys can always be bolted on later, but fixing incorrect fundamentals is a lot more work later on.
So the pistons have to go. They need to be replaced with flat tops or with a D dish piston. The selection will be that which dials in the SCR to what the fuel octane of what you want to use is. Go to the Keith black site, they have a ton of pistons and some compression ratio calculators.
Squish and quench are functions that build what's called mechanical octane into the engine, they also improve off idle and high axle ratio cruise performance as well as optimizing performance against the available octane fuels. The same parts perform both functions, which are merely separated in cycle time. Squish happens first, as the piston closes to TDC the mixture on the far side of the chamber is ejected by the close closing of the piston and head decks toward the spark plug. This stirs the mixture and increases its density before the spark-plug making it easier to light off and faster to burn.
As the burn proceeds from the plug, the temperature and pressures go up very quickly. The so called end burn on the far side of the chamber wants to spontaneously ignite creating and explosion, colliding flame fronts, and high pressure waves. The mechanical way of reducing this is to have an area on the far side of the chamber that has a lot of surface area to its volume to quench the explosion by being a heat sink. These two functions work together to improve the burn giving more power and economy and to delay the onset of detonation, especially under high loads and part throttle operation. Certainly not as sexy as EFI, the basics seldom are sexy, but the foundation is what keeps it together.
|12-21-2009 09:05 AM|
you can save some weight by going to aluminum heads, and the heads you have listed are decent heads, your route isn't the most cost effective way to 400hp though, I was just trying to help your bottom line.
As far as pump gas and Vortecs, flat tops and Vortecs are ran a LOT. anything larger than a 268XE cam seems to run just fine on premium. If you are going for high RPM power you could probably get by on 89 maybe even 87 depending on a lot of other factors.
It all depends on what route YOU want to take. I was just trying to show you a cheaper route to make the 400hp you are after.
|12-21-2009 08:46 AM|
|Zeeb||ap72, I thought flat-tops with the 64cc Vortec chambers would run my octane requirement over pump-gas range? FYI- I don't have heads or intake for the motor at present. The aluminum Vortec heads are attractive because of the weight savings. The project car once had a much lighter engine (rotary) and I would like to avoid too much weight up front.|
|12-21-2009 07:48 AM|
sounds like you could hit it with a hone and put in some std. flat tops. I know budget may be tight, but $100 for pistons, and $50 for rings, with some work done to the heads and a cam swap would give you 400hp AND cost less than the edelbrock conversion.
Its a lot cheaper to swap pistons than heads and Vortecs with $100 of machine work and new springs can support 400hp with no problem.
|12-21-2009 07:37 AM|
F-BIRD '88, okay, I'll do that. My engine is on a stand and I'm sure it will be important to use a level, shim wheels, etc. to ensure all is level before I start, to avoid trapped air. I do have a dial indicator and stand, so no problem finding TDC. I'll do this over this weekend and report back. Not looking to have my hand held, so I'll try to research the calculations best I can without bothering you, but I hope you wouldn't mind giving a little more help if I get stuck. The reason this is important to me is the short-block has only 39K mi. on it (it's out of a wreck and has been stored oiled and covered for several years). Budget is tight, so I would like to reuse it as is but still make maximum HP, and I know that takes decent compression numbers. If, say, the CR was in the "8's", with the particular dish cc I have (as some have speculated per my first post), I would find the dollars to replace the pistons with a shallower dish type. But since it's confirmed that the stockers are hypereutetic - and if after the volume measurements you kindly described come out favorable (9 plus points), I'll be sitting pretty. Still need to inspect the rod and crank journals, and measure bearing clearances, but I expect all will be well. the bores measure at 4.00" + - .001". There is no ridge at all, no scuffs or glazing. The honing is still visible. Cobalt327, that dish appears slightly deeper than mine, but it could just be the angle of the photo. Wish I had a nice depth gauge like that. I do have a good Starrett dial caliper, and I suppose I could play around with it by placing a flat bar across the piston top, resting the bottom of the scale on it and dropping the depth measurng device down from that, then subtracting the thickness of the bar. We'll find out soon enough.
|12-21-2009 01:50 AM|
The pistons from a Suburban L31 I own have exactly 11cc dishes that are 0.080" deep.
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