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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-31-2012 08:02 AM
cobalt327 Circle track dirt cars are a tough example to use when trying to apply rules of thumb on powerbands except to say that the shape of the powerband is every bit as important- if not more so- than peak numbers. Broad, flat curves will often perform better than peaky curves because the car will often handle better down on peak power- there will be less tire spin off the corners, often w/a side benefit of being able to get back on the gas sooner.

How many times have you seen a Cup or Busch stock car on a tight asphalt oval run right w/the leaders- down a cylinder?
07-31-2012 12:25 AM
dirtburner
ok

well ok i generally go with what works. and judging by my engine builders track record, my wins, and the way my engines have always pulled like crazy off the corner with taller gears than majority of my competitors, I'll just stick with it. I do know that when I started getting engines with more torque my cars got way easier to drive and get out of trouble, as i could steer with the throttle as opposed to having to stab the brakes. my old spec engine made more hp and less torque and i used an 8200rpm limiter with 6.00 gears now i run a 8000 rpm pill with 5.83's on the same track and it pulls harder off the corner and produces faster lap times. must be some voodo magic.
07-29-2012 09:41 PM
ap72
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtburner View Post
Now now. I was being nice i thought, apparently ignorant people have to post. If you understand cars, trucks, tractors, anything that runs on fuel, all require torque. simply put, torque gets you there and horsepower keeps you there. you could have 1000 hp but if you only had 100ft lbs of torque you would have a hard time launching it huh? To put it in terms even someone like you can understand here is an example. a 6.0 diesel IH engine in a delivery truck makes 230 hp and 620 ft lbs of torque, an 87 tbi 454 also made 230hp but only 385 ft lbs of torque. so if torque dont win races lets put some money on which engine would win a 1/4 mile race in a bread truck....they have identical hp numbers so it should be dead even right?
BTW the builder that i quoted is Dave Adams from adams engines. Last year in mods and streets out of the top 5 cars in national points 4 in one class and 5 in the other were powered by his engine....so ya he is probably wrong , and you in all your infinite wisdom must be correct.
guys like you are all kinds of fun to race. and i like taking their money.
You obviously don't understand what tq and hp is. For a race of any duration tq is an absolutely useless number. Its not even simple physics either, its simple linguistics, look at the definition of each.

The only thing that matters is putting as much power to the ground as you can as quickly as possible for the length of the track. Given equal cars the highest average power to the ground for the length of the track will win the race.
07-29-2012 02:06 PM
vinniekq2 wow,dirtburner?
anyways Audi seems to do well with their racing diesel engines in LeMans etc. They have less hp than the gas engine cars. keeping things more even,low torque engines,if high horse powered usually make up torque with higher RPMs and more gear reduction. There is a lot of math to do to see which combination works better,,,IE: a 200 horse power 2500 pound honda civic usually out performs a 200 HP 350 V-8 in an equal weight domestic because 8,000 rpm can use a very steep gear ratio compared to a 4400 rpm 200 hp V-8
07-29-2012 12:08 PM
dirtburner
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
" torque wins races....horsepower sells engines"

Torque has never won a race in the history of ever.
Now now. I was being nice i thought, apparently ignorant people have to post. If you understand cars, trucks, tractors, anything that runs on fuel, all require torque. simply put, torque gets you there and horsepower keeps you there. you could have 1000 hp but if you only had 100ft lbs of torque you would have a hard time launching it huh? To put it in terms even someone like you can understand here is an example. a 6.0 diesel IH engine in a delivery truck makes 230 hp and 620 ft lbs of torque, an 87 tbi 454 also made 230hp but only 385 ft lbs of torque. so if torque dont win races lets put some money on which engine would win a 1/4 mile race in a bread truck....they have identical hp numbers so it should be dead even right?
BTW the builder that i quoted is Dave Adams from adams engines. Last year in mods and streets out of the top 5 cars in national points 4 in one class and 5 in the other were powered by his engine....so ya he is probably wrong , and you in all your infinite wisdom must be correct.
guys like you are all kinds of fun to race. and i like taking their money.
07-29-2012 08:52 AM
ap72 " torque wins races....horsepower sells engines"

Torque has never won a race in the history of ever.
07-28-2012 05:47 PM
dirtburner on a side note
Anyone in here ever use hardblock part way up the water jackets? My engine builder swears by it, he says it reduces out of round and taper drastically and decreases lower web flex. Any thoughts?
07-28-2012 05:43 PM
dirtburner after reading what i posted i have to add this before someone jumps down my throat. when im talkin about building an engine, im assuming that it is being purpose built, ie; building an engine for a daily driver that shouldnt ever see 6000 rpm, for a race car that will rev, for a truck that will pull at normal speeds, and so on. with this in mind you know ahead of time what the variables will be. it would be generally a waste of money to put a callies crank and eagle rods and ultralight forged pistons in your work car that never sees 4000 rpm, just as it would be foolish to have a cast crank, stockrods and cast pistons on a forced induction engine that your going to drag race and turn 7500 rpm.
There is a very good possibilty that im not explaining myself well enough, most of the time things make way more sense to me, then come out all wrong.
Trust me, i'll be the first to admit i make mistakes, Im just trying to let the casual reader know that cutting corners on an engine is foolish, it is way cheaper to research and do it the way it should be done. then you wont end up with shelves full of useless cams and heads like i have and a trailer full of anchors with rods hanging out of the pans, which i have plenty of too. Is going fast fun? darn skippy it is. is it cheap? no way shape or form.
07-28-2012 05:25 PM
dirtburner
sorry

I didnt mean to start an argument. the point i was trying to make is, when picking engine parts the stuff should all work together to produce maximum torque and hp. I just assumed ( and i am sorry because i shouldnt have) that most would build an engine to be powerful with what their budget yeilds, and gear according to torque range. when i started dabbling in my own engines i used to call companys like crower and elgin and so on. they always asked weight of car and gears. Then during my strive to win races i stumbled across denny at motor machine and supply. Sounds really dumb but i actually called him becaus i was reading a book about how to build power in a small block, and the author praised this guy. Anyways when i called him and asked him about my streetstock engine, he said "email me all the specs on your engine, including flow numbers on intake and heads, and all the parts you have in it." when i asked him if he wanted to know car weight and gears he laughed. he said next time i call a cam company and they ask, before u tell them what it is ask them why they need to know it, and there will be a dead silence on the phone. he stated that the "cam techs" that answer the phone are entering what you say in a computer and it picks your cam. it is a close recommendation for the mass public. gets you in the ballpark. The cam according to him, and i have no reason to doubt him, is the heart of your engine. Denny stated he was at a meeting and all the major players were there they were tryin to come up with a cam design for the new nascar engines. he said dave crower( i believe that was his name) was the speaker and was talking about all the variables and getting input from other cam guys. after the meeting denny walked up to him and asked him for a recommendation on a cam in his street driver. crower asked him what it weighed, denny asked why that mattered, he had no answer.
basically what im saying is: if you build an engine that makes 575hp at 7000 and 600lb torque at 3400. it makes no difference if its in a 2500 lb car or a 10,000lb car. the engine will function the same, just be slower in the heavy car. secondly im not sure i know anyone who builds an engine from the ground up and doesnt gear for the engines torque curve. the only time i could see that coming into play is if you were switching cams in your 2002 chevy truck( just an example) and u wanted to get the most power you could with exhisting package because it is a 4x4 and gears are spendy. in a 2wd application in my opinion, your tripping over a dollar to save a dime if you cam for your gears and dont cam for optimum performace from your engine and change gears to accomodate.
In closing i have to leave you all with a quote from an engine builder friend of mine in wisconsin.
" torque wins races....horsepower sells engines"
07-28-2012 04:03 PM
cobalt327
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigEd36 View Post
Can you even mill .125" off a SBC original head? Seems that would be awfully thin decks.
That'd be somewhere around 19cc reduction (given 1cc = 0.0065" cut, flat, not angle milled), or a chamber size of ~57cc. Assuming a 0.041" quench, the static CR would be around 11.3:1. The chambers are usually larger than the nominal 76cc so the cr could be slightly less.

I have seen a set of 441 SBC heads flat milled 0.090" for a stock car class that required FT pistons and large chamber iron heads. The decks were thin, but the engine (and others like it) ran well. Obviously overheating should be avoided, but that's w/any head- just that these were more likely to crack.

Excessive milling can lead to several other areas of concern, though. At some point, the intake seat will be intruded on, requiring the seats be sunk- and this often kills flow. Then there's the need to reface the intake flange, and if angle milled the bolt holes have to be enlarged and the bolt seats spot faced. This also plays havoc on the geometry, the valve and push rod angle is different.

But given how poorly the smog heads flow and that there are small chamber heads available that flow better, I really don't see doing that unless that was all there was available for some reason.
07-28-2012 02:02 PM
BigEd36
Quote:
Originally Posted by gofastz View Post
Yes sir, let me tell ya, iv got a 79' z/28 with a 60 over 350, with flat tops and a comp mag 480" with 280@.50, with a set of 882's milled 125 thousands, and all new springs, valves 1.94's, harland sharp roller rockers @1.5, cast crank wearing the x-rods, with 0 deck hight, a performer eps intake, feeding it is a 1850 600 holley with all the choke stuff gone, firen it is the accel coil on a good ole HEI... the z has 3:73 gears, a turbo 350 good shift kit with a 2000-2500 stall... i love this ride!!
Can you even mill .125" off a SBC original head? Seems that would be awfully thin decks.
07-28-2012 01:02 AM
cobalt327
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
To say "When picking a cam, weight of the car and gears and so on mean nothin" is a skewed way to look at a system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
Dirtburner,well stated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
that was poorly posted,sorry. I had a quote in there and I meant to say I agree with most of what dirtburner said.
It's easy to get crossed up w/who said what when a thread like this gets rolling. lol

I sent you a brief PM.

Mark

Quote:
Originally Posted by zildjian4life218 View Post
Would a fair compromise be to say to get the most out of an engine the appropriate stall gears tire and weight for the application should be used?
I could agree w/that statement 100%. But it's not so much of a compromise as a correction IMHO, but either way, weight and gear ratio and how it will be used and a LOT of other things routinely come into play when someone sits down and specs an engine build. Unless they have the option of clean sheeting the vehicle after the engine is done.
07-27-2012 09:00 PM
vinniekq2 zildjian4life218 absolutely,I agree.,,,I dont need 4.11 for my application for example. I bet if I posted my engine specs people would recommend 4.56 gears and a 750 or 850 holley and also tell me I used too big of heads and a 6k chip in the rev limiter is stupid,,,,,
07-27-2012 08:48 PM
zildjian4life218 Would a fair compromise be to say to get the most out of an engine the appropriate stall gears tire and weight for the application should be used?
07-27-2012 08:33 PM
vinniekq2 that was poorly posted,sorry. I had a quote in there and I meant to say I agree with most of what dirtburner said.You guys will figure it out or call me dummie...
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