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Topic Review (Newest First)
05-11-2010 07:10 PM
BarryK
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
Iso's don't just "go right through" an activated carbon filter if it is is still fresh and not saturated but the filters do not stop 100% of the fumes either. That chart I mentioned earlier showed declining protection from various contaminates and after a given amount of time depending on the contaminate and the concentration the permissible exposure limit could be exceeded before the filter reaches total saturation. With iso's fresh filters can provide adequate protection within permissible limits for an hour or so or for several hours depending on the concentration. The fact that there are a lot of painters out there who have been using these things for years with no apparent ill effects is testament to the fact that they do provide protection within a reasonable range. I would never recommend to anyone to use these things for total protection for continuous everyday use or in really heavily contaminated areas but for occasional use to simi pro use in a reasonably ventilated area they will provide adequate protection if they are fresh and used PROPERLY!
================================================== ==

EXACTLY!

Let me add a couple of things, First the most common respirators sold and used are three brands and most paint stores will carry all three. 3M, SAS, and Gerson, all are great and they have constant price wars and I will buy the one on sale every time.

Second thing that a lot of people I talk to have a hard time understanding, is keep the air flowing so fumes do not build up.

If you are shooting epoxy in a personal garage, have all the windows open and big door all the way up, same with 2K primer.

The last three high dollar vettes I did, the frames were epoxied outside the garage in the grass as well as the vett thats in the garage now.
Dirt does not come from floor, grass, comes from the body crevices and from your own body.
05-11-2010 06:20 PM
oldred
Quote:
Originally Posted by TucsonJay
oldred, Thanks for that info. I was just going by what I had been told, and trying to play it safe.


For sure a supplied air system is safer and one can not be too safe!
05-11-2010 06:13 PM
TucsonJay oldred, Thanks for that info. I was just going by what I had been told, and trying to play it safe.
05-11-2010 05:55 PM
oldred Iso's don't just "go right through" an activated carbon filter if it is is still fresh and not saturated but the filters do not stop 100% of the fumes either. That chart I mentioned earlier showed declining protection from various contaminates and after a given amount of time depending on the contaminate and the concentration the permissible exposure limit could be exceeded before the filter reaches total saturation. With iso's fresh filters can provide adequate protection within permissible limits for an hour or so or for several hours depending on the concentration. The fact that there are a lot of painters out there who have been using these things for years with no apparent ill effects is testament to the fact that they do provide protection within a reasonable range. I would never recommend to anyone to use these things for total protection for continuous everyday use or in really heavily contaminated areas but for occasional use to simi pro use in a reasonably ventilated area they will provide adequate protection if they are fresh and used PROPERLY!
05-11-2010 05:04 PM
TucsonJay OldRed, I will assume you are talking about the 3M mask that was approved for "isos".

I know I have talked with quite a number of paint suppliers who have told me that isocyanates will go right through most cartidge masks.

I switched to remote air about 20 years ago. I work 7 days a week, and spray isocyanates, or am sanding them, about 10-15% of the time. After 40 years in this biz, the only problem so far is slight kidney function loss, which may, or may not, be from the paints. I have a few friends who didn't make it this far.
05-11-2010 04:53 PM
Brando_21 http://cgi.ebay.com/Supplied-fresh-A...33923193460709

would that system be acceptable
05-11-2010 04:45 PM
oldred They are not recommended for isocyanates because of possible mis-use not because they are not effective against them. What was mentioned before about people leaving them on the bench for weeks or even months or trying to use them with a beard or an ill-fitting mask that allows leakage or any number of other things that people WILL do is why they are not approved for iso's. They most certainly will protect from isocyanate exposure and there are people here who have used them successfully for that purpose for years, the key is to USE THEM PROPERLY! The manufacturers are quite aware that when these things are sold to the general public that the vast majority are not trained in their proper use and a great many will simply ignore included warnings and instructions so the manufacturers in order to protect their arses from legal problems will simply exclude their use for anything as immediately and severely dangerous as iso's. With a properly fitting mask on a clean shaven face and properly checked for leaks and FRESH filters plus a fairly well ventilated painting area these things will provide ample protection. Some guys will just grab a mask that has been lying around open for weeks, not even think about checking for proper fit and then spray in an unventilated shop with overspray almost too thick to see through. When they get sick from the fumes a lot of these people would most assuredly sue the filter manufacturer if the filter were approved for use with that contaminate.


All this however in no way disagrees with the suggestion to use a supplied air respirator which is much better than trying to filter out the contaminates. Properly used however a good mask and fresh filters are just fine for the occasional painter.
05-11-2010 04:07 PM
TucsonJay There are about 35 kinds of paint vapors in today's products. There are lots of chemical cartridge masks on the market for paint vapors. The danger from them can be helped with these types of masks.....but generally they WILL NOT protect you from paint hardeners that contain isocyanates.

If you are spraying 2-part paints, they probably contain isocyanates.

You can also be exposed by sanding partially set up paints, by absorbing it through your skin. This can be contolled using "nitrile" rubber gloves.

It is my understanding that 3M is the only company that has an approved cartidge mask for the isocyanates in hardeners.

The danger is that if the mask is not filtering them out... you can NOT smell them!



If you do a search on the internet you will find that 99% of the sites that have expertise will tell you these few things about isocyanates:

Use a remote air source for breathing!.... Period!

Cover your skin, and especially wet areas like your eyes, as isocyanates will be attracted to moisture.

I have had friends overexposed by the time they are thirty. ...and your body never gets rid of them!

OIl type air compressors produce carbon monoxide, like car exhaust. You cannot use them for an air source.

"Oil-free", or diaphram type air compressers can be used if they are in good condition, but they too can produce carbon monoxide if they are not working right.

Overexposure to isocyanates can be fatal. ....not to mention things like cancer and kidney failure.

Be smart! Buy the equipment and use it.

These paints are great products. Just make sure that you last as long as your paintjobs do!!!
05-11-2010 03:50 PM
oldred
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt167
I open a package of cartridges, use them until there about 1/2 used up and throw them out, get another package of cartridges out of the cabinet and use them.. when I painted my '51 Chevy, I used 6 sets fresh right out of the packages.. that included 2 coats of epoxy primer tho


Some people may think you are just wasting them but I remember back at one of our mine safety training classes we were shown a chart for activated carbon cartridges that showed declining effectiveness with use. The effectiveness of these things starts to decline as soon as you start using them but depending on the concentrations of the contaminate they remain within a safety margin for a given amount of time. What this means is that even though they may still be within mandated safety limits you can still lessen your exposure by changing the filters well before their saturation point, probably not really necessary but for piece of mind and extra security it does make a difference. I will open a pack and use them once then toss them, not recommending everyone do this but I feel safer doing it.
05-11-2010 03:05 PM
matt167 I open a package of cartridges, use them until there about 1/2 used up and throw them out, get another package of cartridges out of the cabinet and use them.. when I painted my '51 Chevy, I used 6 sets fresh right out of the packages.. that included 2 coats of epoxy primer tho
05-11-2010 02:32 PM
302 Z28 The key and the safe thing to do is use new organic vapor cartridges when you spray. Some people leave their respirators and cartridges laying open on their work bench, or hanging in the paint booth for months then slap them on and spray. Organic Vapor cartridges contain activated carbon which will become saturated if let sitting open. In order to get the maximum use from your organic vapor cartridges place them in a Ziploc gallon freezer bag when finished spraying.

Vince
05-11-2010 10:54 AM
Brando_21 just reading various posts, there are however many varying opinions and views so was most likely me simply misunderstanding a post. All new to me just trying to educated myself so that i can paint my project without causing damage to myself or anyone else in the area for that matter. I have a standard 3m mask like oreillys stocks, i used it to spray the epoxy. Ive just read alot of horror stories from people using urethanes, so if something i stated was incorrect i appologize, this is why i posted the question, to insure to get it correct
05-11-2010 10:29 AM
BarryK Got news for you, who ever told you Enamel was safer and then shooting a flattened clear had no clue what they were talking about.

All have, that you mentioned:
polyols. Polyisocyanates, Surface tensioners, UV inhibitors and a host of different solvents to make the stuff smell good.
05-11-2010 10:24 AM
sunsetdart As long as you use a good respirator when painting, urethanes are not a problem. You can't paint anything with just a dust mask.
05-11-2010 09:17 AM
Brando_21
urethane dangers

I have read and read about the dangers of using urethane paints, such as the hot rod flatz. I was curious is the urethane primers just as bad? I have decided against the hot rod line due to the hazards and will just be using an enamel with a flat clearcoat instead, however i have already purchased omni 282 and the tech at the store said it was urethane, is it as bad as the paints?

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