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Topic Review (Newest First)
09-21-2010 07:50 AM
crashtech Dimethyl ketone is acetone.

Methyl ethyl ketone also smells like acetone and is also hygroscopic, I believe. It's like a slower version of acetone.

Keep it tightly capped at all times, open only briefly to pour.
09-20-2010 10:07 PM
greenmoonshine
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaintKem
Well from the looks of it the ppg has a little more to it than the rustoleum
ppg lists,
1-METHOXY-2-PROPYL ACETATE
2-METHYLCYCLOHEXANE - POOR FOR EPOXY
3-TOLUENE
4-N-HEPTANE POOR FOR EPOXY
5-NAPHTHA POOR FOR EPOXY
6-METHYL ETHYL KETONE
7-V.M. AND P. NAPHTHA POOR FOR EPOXY

rustoleum lists only,
1-Acetone - Excellent in Epoxy
2-Methyl n- Amyl Ketone - Excellent in Epoxy
3-Ethyl 3 -ethoxy propionate - Fair to good in epoxy
Well I received the Summit universal urethane reducer and this is what it lists as ingredients
Methyl Ethyl Ketone
1-Methyoxy-2-Propanol Acetate
Dimethylketone
N-Butyl Acetate
Toluol
Naphtha VM&P
Xylene
looks allot like PPG's list except for less $ and it smells just like acetone as to where the Rustoleum actually smelled sweet/pleasing(almost addictive ), kinda like fruit
09-19-2010 10:23 PM
crashtech
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenmoonshine
Is it necessary to use paint strainers, and if so is 60/70 mesh OK for the epoxy?
I bought some of these strainers but they also had some that were around 120 mesh I think?.........I just figured the higher the number the higher the strand count in the mesh so a lower number would probably work better with a thicker paint.
The HVLP gun I will be using has a 1.4 tip on it so will the epoxy shoot through this OK and will it shoot better if I do use the reduce? I know it says to reduce it as much as 20% for sealer but if I just wanted to thin it a little what if I just used 10% reducer? wold that be better than using the full 20%? I know some of ya were saying not to use it.
One last thing, I am going to say that if I am using 32oz of primer/catalyst + 20% reducer (6.4oz) = 38.4oz correct? or just the 10% would be 3.2oz reducer.
It is advisable to use a strainer to keep out foreign matter and even semi-dried bits of material from the edge of the container that may not catalyze properly.

The paper strainers supplied by my jobber are rated in microns, the most commonly used sizes range from 125 to 190 micron. I use 125s for sealers, clears, solid colors, and some primers, and 190s for metallics, pearls, and poly primer.

It's OK to use a smaller mesh with epoxy primer, as it is not too viscose to pour through a fine mesh like some poly primers.

If you are shooting epoxy on bare metal, or as a primer for bodywork, less reducer is better. Sometimes a new painter will have better luck with a small amount of reduction, even 5% will make a difference in the spray characteristics of the material if you are having trouble laying it out. Try it unreduced first, especially on bare metal.

P.S. Your arithmetic looks OK to me.
09-19-2010 08:43 PM
greenmoonshine Is it necessary to use paint strainers, and if so is 60/70 mesh OK for the epoxy?
I bought some of these strainers but they also had some that were around 120 mesh I think?.........I just figured the higher the number the higher the strand count in the mesh so a lower number would probably work better with a thicker paint.
The HVLP gun I will be using has a 1.4 tip on it so will the epoxy shoot through this OK and will it shoot better if I do use the reduce? I know it says to reduce it as much as 20% for sealer but if I just wanted to thin it a little what if I just used 10% reducer? wold that be better than using the full 20%? I know some of ya were saying not to use it.
One last thing, I am going to say that if I am using 32oz of primer/catalyst + 20% reducer (6.4oz) = 38.4oz correct? or just the 10% would be 3.2oz reducer.
09-19-2010 04:47 AM
deadbodyman I have no idea what hydro scopic or phillic means sounds like water "hydro" and something to do with water amounts or size maybe "scopic" ? but I'm just an old body man that uses different quality materials for different quality jobs because ,not everyone wants or can afford my very best work and I cant afford to do nor want to do only one kind of job. All I know is the higher quality reducers have less water content....amoung other things...
when I wanted to use my brand of epoxy as a sealer I called the hotline and spoke to fhe man that makes it ...I explained I didnt use much sealer so I didnt want to buy a whole gallon of his reducer just to spray some sealer one time so he recomended using base maker (chroma base by Dupont)because I had it already and one of the things that made it better was it had less water content than my other reduser by Dupont ,which was a lot cheaper,Nason ...Both would work. He never used words like Hydro scopic ...but just because you use quality materials dosent mean you do or will get a quality job ,it takes lots of practice and altho us guys that make our living at restoring and repairing cars will cross mix different brands and it works fine ,sometimes it dont...so play it safe and use the componets that they recomend and follow the directions for what ever products your using.
09-18-2010 10:53 AM
crashtech
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaintKem
Yes, I have been blessed to be an automotive paint chemist and a hobby painter for many years now. It is a lot of fun to be part of this industry.

The PPG DT series reducer does have ingredients in it that are not strong solvents (called diluents when used in this manner) for epoxy or even most urethane resins for that matter. However, there are enough good solvents in there to keep everything in solution. The point I was making is that at face value the Rustoleum blend reported actually contains better solvents for epoxy than the PPG. As you and I both said the potential water content of the rustoleum reducer could be a problem but if it were managed properly by rustoleum would not be a problem. Acetone is indeed always a tough one to keep dry.
Thanks for the explanation, I hope you decide to stay and share more of this kind of knowledge!

I think I may have a knee-jerk reaction against anything that says "Rustoleum" on the can, at least when it comes to doing quality automotive refinish work. Some of their products may indeed be suitable, though usually the MSDS does not tell the whole story.

P.S. I think that word I was looking for re acetone was actually "hygroscopic," not "hydrophilic," but I couldn't edit it after I'd had my coffee and realized it, lol.
09-18-2010 04:06 AM
deadbodyman I've never used sumit but I'd would play it safe and use their reducer on my first time using it ...you'll have enough trouble getting it right ..You wouldnt believe how many mistakes can be made even if you follow all the directions..
09-17-2010 09:08 PM
greenmoonshine
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaintKem
Originally Posted by greenmoonshine
Well from the looks of it the ppg has a little more to it than the rustoleum
ppg lists,
1-METHOXY-2-PROPYL ACETATE
2-METHYLCYCLOHEXANE - POOR FOR EPOXY
3-TOLUENE
4-N-HEPTANE POOR FOR EPOXY
5-NAPHTHA POOR FOR EPOXY
6-METHYL ETHYL KETONE
7-V.M. AND P. NAPHTHA POOR FOR EPOXY

rustoleum lists only,
1-Acetone - Excellent in Epoxy
2-Methyl n- Amyl Ketone - Excellent in Epoxy
3-Ethyl 3 -ethoxy propionate - Fair to good in epoxy
OK,........WOW , I totally missed where you had listed what was good,fair,excellent and poor for epoxy , now your statement about the conventional 2k epoxy makes more sense I got a little lost for a moment, but what your saying is that the ingredients in the rustoleum reducer look good except for its possible and or exceptional water content due to the acetone.
Maybe I should have tried the rustoleum, oh well I have already ordered the Summit reducer, but now I guess I shouldn't use the reducer at all, well until I have laid down all the epoxy primer and ready for paint?
09-17-2010 08:11 PM
PaintKem
Quote:
Originally Posted by crashtech
Thanks for your interesting contribution, and welcome! Are you a paint chemist?

Why would PPG recommend the use of DT reducer in their DP and DPLF epoxy if it contains unsuitable ingredients?

I will adjust my techniques and advice if standard urethane reducers are shown to be generally be unsuitable for epoxy.

I know I would not use any store bought acetone for mixing into coatings, as acetone is hydrophilic. If it doesn't have water in it when you buy it, it will eventually as it absorbs it from the air.
Yes, I have been blessed to be an automotive paint chemist and a hobby painter for many years now. It is a lot of fun to be part of this industry.

The PPG DT series reducer does have ingredients in it that are not strong solvents (called diluents when used in this manner) for epoxy or even most urethane resins for that matter. However, there are enough good solvents in there to keep everything in solution. The point I was making is that at face value the Rustoleum blend reported actually contains better solvents for epoxy than the PPG. As you and I both said the potential water content of the rustoleum reducer could be a problem but if it were managed properly by rustoleum would not be a problem. Acetone is indeed always a tough one to keep dry.
09-17-2010 07:21 PM
deadbodyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclopsblown34
x2 on the cold galvanizing compound.
Ahh ,youve tried it...if I have something that isnt worth the time to use epoxy or cant wait for it to dry that stuff works great I dont buy any weld thru primer since I found this...I never thought weld thru was worth the price.
09-17-2010 03:02 PM
cyclopsblown34
Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman
You can clean your greasy parts and your paint gun with it ,glue residue Etc ... but lacquer thinner is cheaper.
Lowes has little you can use for a car ...I've used some of the stuff from there when I run out but its way more expensive than my jobber but what are ya gonna do on a weekend ?? they have some sand paper ,aircraft stripper,lacquer thinner, fiber glass resin and mat,that are all pretty good...bondo ,but it really sucks,strainers and paint sticks but you have to buy them and they are free at the jobbers ...the primers by rust o lium arnt very good I would only use them on suspension parts ,but only in an emergency,if at all ,never on a body ....although their cold galvinizing compound in a rattle can makes a pretty good weld through primer....
I use a lot of epoxy and I wouldnt reduce it....not ever...I only reduce it as a sealer...
when I made all my air bag brackets one weekend..I had to use that primer so I could keep on going...I got the job done but I wished I waited ....
x2 on the cold galvanizing compound.
09-17-2010 09:36 AM
deadbodyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenmoonshine
I think I am now convinced to not use the rustoleum and instead go with the Summit UP401 medium, its only $10 a quart so I think I will just get a couple and have one in reserve.
What exactly is "conventional" 2k epoxy? This epoxy primer i got is single stage 2 part (2k-primer/activator) so what does this rustoleum reducer work with besides the rustoleum primer?
You can clean your greasy parts and your paint gun with it ,glue residue Etc ... but lacquer thinner is cheaper.
Lowes has little you can use for a car ...I've used some of the stuff from there when I run out but its way more expensive than my jobber but what are ya gonna do on a weekend ?? they have some sand paper ,aircraft stripper,lacquer thinner, fiber glass resin and mat,that are all pretty good...bondo ,but it really sucks,strainers and paint sticks but you have to buy them and they are free at the jobbers ...the primers by rust o lium arnt very good I would only use them on suspension parts ,but only in an emergency,if at all ,never on a body ....although their cold galvinizing compound in a rattle can makes a pretty good weld through primer....
I use a lot of epoxy and I wouldnt reduce it....not ever...I only reduce it as a sealer...
when I made all my air bag brackets one weekend..I had to use that primer so I could keep on going...I got the job done but I wished I waited ....
09-17-2010 08:30 AM
chevymike
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenmoonshine
My thinking was that once I get it down to bare metal where the rust is, the thinner epoxy will get down in the pitted areas left by the newly removed rust and lie flat in there causing it to seal better, then I can go back later and fill the pits with a light coat of filler or just use filler primer (depending on depth of pits).
Based on the info from my Kustom Shop Epoxy primer, bare metal should be non reduced. It should be epoxy and hardener. Based on their info, you add the reducer to use it as a sealer, which is typically done over a painted surface, to seal it from any top coat done after the sealer. Kind of why it's called sealer.

Even at non reduced, it will lay fine in any pits but is not going to fill them. You will need to do that with a skim coat of filler. I'm a totally newbie at this but this is what I have learned from this site and many others I have researched.
09-17-2010 08:10 AM
crashtech
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaintKem
Definitely best to buy the reducer from Summit to be safe. Of the two you mentioned above the rustoleum blend you have listed above is actually better for conventional 2K epoxy. The wild card is water content which you won't find on the MSDS. If the rustoleum has an excessive water contaminant then it could cause some problems so definitely worth the wait to follow the instructions and buy the proper reducer and then follow the instructions they recommend for use direct to metal.
Thanks for your interesting contribution, and welcome! Are you a paint chemist?

Why would PPG recommend the use of DT reducer in their DP and DPLF epoxy if it contains unsuitable ingredients?

I will adjust my techniques and advice if standard urethane reducers are shown to be generally be unsuitable for epoxy.

I know I would not use any store bought acetone for mixing into coatings, as acetone is hydrophilic. If it doesn't have water in it when you buy it, it will eventually as it absorbs it from the air.
09-17-2010 05:03 AM
deadbodyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenmoonshine
My thinking was that once I get it down to bare metal where the rust is, the thinner epoxy will get down in the pitted areas left by the newly removed rust and lie flat in there causing it to seal better, then I can go back later and fill the pits with a light coat of filler or just use filler primer (depending on depth of pits).
rust o lium is toulene,dont use it ...you would just use the hardner and the epoxy on bare metal ...dont worry about the sealer until you paint,and then use a good quality "urethane" reducer only...
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