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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-02-2010 07:27 PM
Amigo406
Anyone have experience with this bar

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...T#ht_500wt_976

What would it cost for the proper tooling to put this bar into use on location in order to bore an old farm tractor?
09-28-2010 05:43 AM
CNC BLOCKS NE
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72
It would be advisable if you are going to bore it .060" over. Its always a risk when boring that far.

CNC Blocks will tell you it has to be done, but he is in a business of machining and shipping blocks all over, he has to stand behind his work and for him to not sonic check is an unacceptable risk for him.

I've had some bored .060" locally in the past without checking as no one close to me had a checker, but my machinist informed me of the risk and I knew that. I had no problems, but some have, it is always a possibility. I've heard the figure between 1 in 7 and 1 in 10 350 SBC's will be too thin at +.060" for performance work(500 hp-up street/strip, 450hp circle track). Carl (CNC Blocks) might be able to give better figures on this.
On a peformance engine we lie to see .160 at finish size on the skirt sides and wrist pin sides we like to see .120 at finish size. And to meet our specs we don't fine may blocks that will be reliable and have GOOD RING SEAL which is key.

Don't go buy core sift as that has been proven a myth when owning a sonic tester, Inf ack I two blocks in th shop that have no core shift but the cyl walls on one block are .125 average on the thrust side at standard bore on one side of the block only making it junk, The other block has one cylinder that is vvery thin making that block junk.

In all I have about 40 blocks or so that are good for nothing but a stock build because of poor cylinder placement from the factory.

Over the years I have had alot of calls about cracked cylinders and I can see why.

We deal a couple hundred blocks a year and most guys are dealing with one or two blocks a year or their life time.

Our local circle tracks are usig the crate engines and some have failed because of cylinders cracking.

I am also an advocate of plate honing as well.
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58964
09-27-2010 10:56 PM
Duntov
An SBC block is the cheapest part of the build.

If it is a 0010 block then there are pistons available through the machine shop catalogs in 080" if it makes you feel any better about your 060 chances. I've never had a 0010 60 bore that didn't pass but I've heard of heating problems on the forums. <could be a lot of other reasons for it.

How much ridge does it have?

Mahle and others sell forged 4.045s but it's not likely it would clean up that easy.
09-27-2010 09:29 PM
ericnova72 It would be advisable if you are going to bore it .060" over. Its always a risk when boring that far.

CNC Blocks will tell you it has to be done, but he is in a business of machining and shipping blocks all over, he has to stand behind his work and for him to not sonic check is an unacceptable risk for him.

I've had some bored .060" locally in the past without checking as no one close to me had a checker, but my machinist informed me of the risk and I knew that. I had no problems, but some have, it is always a possibility. I've heard the figure between 1 in 7 and 1 in 10 350 SBC's will be too thin at +.060" for performance work(500 hp-up street/strip, 450hp circle track). Carl (CNC Blocks) might be able to give better figures on this.
09-27-2010 07:15 PM
1975yellowC3 Not sure what your definition of "high performance" is, but I am hoping for around 400hp. Is this still going to need sonic testing?
09-27-2010 05:34 PM
CNC BLOCKS NE
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1975yellowC3
OK Duntov you asked for it

Since we are already off topic. My bores are already at .040 over. Soooo...is it safe to go to .060 over? I had read some people on her debating about how far over you could go?

Only reason I was thinking about just honing was because when I had the motor out last time, there was hardly any ring gap, so I assumed there wasn't much cylinder wear. Like I said, I haven't done any measuring, so not sure of cylindricity or bore taper.
If its a performance build I would get it sonic tested for cylinder wall thickness and with a bore that big its a good idea to get your block torque plate honed.
09-27-2010 04:24 PM
1975yellowC3 OK Duntov you asked for it

Since we are already off topic. My bores are already at .040 over. Soooo...is it safe to go to .060 over? I had read some people on her debating about how far over you could go?

Only reason I was thinking about just honing was because when I had the motor out last time, there was hardly any ring gap, so I assumed there wasn't much cylinder wear. Like I said, I haven't done any measuring, so not sure of cylindricity or bore taper.
09-27-2010 03:21 PM
Duntov
It was about quench C3

Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
The engines that I build and have built in the past are not to the point that there's zero tolerance for error. Quench is targeted at 0.045", worst case scenario is that it's a little tighter than that.
Quench is suppose to be .044. What the heck are you thinking? Now I'm really upset.
09-27-2010 03:17 PM
Duntov
Hey OP, Got details?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNC BLOCKS NE
So your not addressing the main line first if not that sounds scary, Does you machinest have a sqaring fixture he using or is he using the fudge factor!!!
Kansas Instruments fixtures in both shops we use. I think the OP is probably learning answers to some un-asked questions by listening to this sideline conversation. Therefore it all ends up being good stuff.

Although .............I feel like maybe he has a "What's Next" question coming up. HELLOW C3
09-27-2010 03:15 PM
cobalt327
Quote:
Originally Posted by CNC BLOCKS NE
So your not addressing the main line first if not that sounds scary, Does you machinest have a sqaring fixture he using or is he using the fudge factor!!!
The engines that I build and have built in the past are not to the point that there's zero tolerance for error. Quench is targeted at 0.045", worst case scenario is that it's a little tighter than that.
09-27-2010 02:45 PM
CNC BLOCKS NE
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I think something continues to be lost in the translation.

I don't cut anything. What I AM doing is simply measuring the block to give my machinist the figures I want cut from the deck.
So your not addressing the main line first if not that sounds scary, Does you machinest have a sqaring fixture he using or is he using the fudge factor!!!
09-27-2010 02:30 PM
cobalt327
Quote:
Originally Posted by CNC BLOCKS NE
Most guys that don't have the correct equipment to the job right cant true the decks up so they are true 45 degrees to the cam and cranks center lines.

Which is kind of a wate of time to even cut the decks if you can't do them right.
I think something continues to be lost in the translation.

I don't cut anything. What I AM doing is simply measuring the block to give my machinist the figures I want cut from the deck.
09-27-2010 02:00 PM
engineczar Interesting topic.

I'm in the straighten out the mains first, Square the decks, then bore/hone with plates camp.

I find that intentionally cutting the decks at an angle or to different heights to match a rotating assy just makes for fitment problems down the road. Also the quality of the hone when using plates on freshly cut decks has a benefit if you're concerned about ring seal.

Just my 2 cents.
09-27-2010 01:49 PM
CNC BLOCKS NE
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
A time killer, for sure. And a PITA, for sure.

I don't think anyone prefers to do it that way- but it works for the "little guy" on a tight budget who may only do one or two engines a year. I have a decent tool collection, but I don't have anything that'll accurately measure the block height or stack height- unless I at least partially assemble the rotator or measure it before stripping down the engine, that is.

But for Joe Schmoe from Kokomo, the options are:
  • Pay the piper (i.e. have the machinist do it all, at the shop rate)
  • Take their best guess at the stack height from published figures subtracted from their best guess at the block's height
  • Or measuring the corners
Most guys that don't have the correct equipment to the job right cant true the decks up so they are true 45 degrees to the cam and cranks center lines.

Which is kind of a wate of time to even cut the decks if you can't do them right.
09-27-2010 01:37 PM
cobalt327
Quote:
Originally Posted by CNC BLOCKS NE
Who the hell wants to drag a block back and forth to the machine and what machine shop is going to take the time to fit up a rotator and measure 4 corners of the block. Seems like a waste of time to me.
A time killer, for sure. And a PITA, for sure.

I don't think anyone prefers to do it that way- but it works for the "little guy" on a tight budget who may only do one or two engines a year. I have a decent tool collection, but I don't have anything that'll accurately measure the block height or stack height- unless I at least partially assemble the rotator or measure it before stripping down the engine, that is.

But for Joe Schmoe from Kokomo, the options are:
  • Pay the piper (i.e. have the machinist do it all, at the shop rate)
  • Take their best guess at the stack height from published figures subtracted from their best guess at the block's height
  • Or measuring the corners
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