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Scotch Brite Cylinders

53K views 29 replies 14 participants last post by  recnepswilliams 
#1 ·
I was cleaning a little surface rust from a cylinder in my engine while preparing to replace my heads after it sat for a week and i used scotch brite because i didn't know what else to do, and i noticed it kind of deglazed the cylinder in that area (the engine was ran with way too high of compression and i think they overcompensated with big jets in the carb and it washed out the cylinders because they are glazed, but it didn't burn oil through the rings, just the valve seals)

the engine appears almost new, i replaced the cam and the bearings barely looked broken in so i don't want to tear the engine down.

if i scotch brite the rest of the cylinders completely will it help me or hurt me?
 
#5 ·
i was just randomly googling earlier and i read a few places where they said sometimes it's acceptable to use the pads on the bores to deglaze the cylinders. i even read that some motorcycle builders use that instead of honing on purpose for performance.

also i read that the hex marks from honing are to hold a small amount of oil between the rings and the cylinder wall so i thought that if i were to scotch brite my cylinders it might help.

but if i won't gain anything i wont, and i can try to polish the marks out from cleaning the rust if i have to
 
#6 ·
Never use scotch-brite to clean a engine :nono: you will get little particles all through the engine that you can't even see it can get in the bearings and in the oil pump and really screw a engine up. I know people do it all the time and i have done it in the past but no more for me anyway. I had a friend do it and i told him not to and it wasen't long till he had to tear his engine back down and found particles in the oil-pump and through out the engine. JMO
You do it if you want to or feel comfortable doing it , Never know you might get lucky :eek: But if your not then remember you were told. JMO :smash:
but the thing is you are talking about doing the cylinders with it. I just don't see how you can get it all out. IMHO Some people might say different but i am just stating what can happen that's all. :sweat:

Cole
 
#10 ·
recnepswilliams said:
i was just randomly googling earlier and i read a few places where they said sometimes it's acceptable to use the pads on the bores to deglaze the cylinders. i even read that some motorcycle builders use that instead of honing on purpose for performance.
I"m sure they meant to prep a jug, not an assembled motor, where they could wash and wire brush it when done.
 
#11 ·
recnepswilliams said:
i was just randomly googling earlier and i read a few places where they said sometimes it's acceptable to use the pads on the bores to deglaze the cylinders. i even read that some motorcycle builders use that instead of honing on purpose for performance........

GREAT example of garbage one can find on the internet. The best thing to deglaze bores with is a berrybush hone (as posted by Jake).

In any case, the bore(s) and block should be cleaned thoroughly after any kind of deglazing is done. The deglazing tool is designed to break down while in use and those abrasive particles are not engine-friendly.

tom
 
#12 ·
Unless you masked off the rings with tape to prevent particles getting into the ring lands you may have caused more trouble than you solved. Scotchbrite is too fine to do any kind of bore prep other than cleaning the surface which is what it sounds like you were doing.

The problem is the particles are abrasive mixed with a plastic matrix and if that gets into the ring lands or worse inside the motor it can cause a lot of damage...especially to the bearings which are soft.

If you just did one cylinder I would remove the piston from that bore and clean the piston and ring assy well with solvent and blow it out, a wipe of the cylinder bore is probably all you need since the particles won't have found their way into the lower end. You will likely find a lot of particles in the ring lands so pay special attention to this area.

The main issue with Scotchbrite is its a lot like sand when it breaks down and unless your careful it can easily get where you don't want it. I have even seen melted scotchbrite plastic foul a ring land once because the owner thought doing the bore like you did wouldn't hurt anything...of course he sprayed the piston down with contact cleaner which sent all the particles down to the first and second ring lands which made a mess. This was on an air cooled snowmobile so the damage wasn't catastrophic but the melted scotchbrite seized the rings in the lands and the motor lost all compression on that cylinder. I had to replace the piston on that engine because the ring was so tight I couldn't get it out of the groove...it was like the plastic scotchbrite particles and abrasive made the ring a press fit once exposed to the heat of combustion. Luckily the bore was fine but it could have been much worse if it had happened at high rpm instead of idling in his driveway at which point he brought it to me.

Clean out the mess before it gets worse, it doesn't take long to pull a newer piston to clean it out since there is likely no ridge yet...pull the pan and do yourself a favor by not rolling the dice. Leaving the particulate in there and starting her up is like russian roulette...she might seize...she might not.
 
#13 ·
recnepswilliams said:
also i read that the hex marks from honing are to hold a small amount of oil between the rings and the cylinder wall so i thought that if i were to scotch brite my cylinders it might help.
The crosshatch pattern you see in newish cylinders, is made to a specified angle based mostly on what type of rings being used. Not too sure a person with a scotchbrite pad can replicate it reliably.
 
#14 ·
This is an interesting proposition. In my old 1959 edition MOTORS MANUAL, in the Chevrolet six cylinder engine section, where they talk about deglazing cylinders, it says, "in the absence of a cylinder hone, emory/crocus cloth can be used". I'm sure that was for an empty block, and then cleaned, but it just seemed so "caveman". It probably would have been best just to leave the rust, and treat it like a locked up block from sitting too long. Use penetrants to loosen, and crank the motor over; it'll take care of itself.
 
#15 ·
would steel wool do any better to clean rust out of a cylinder?

the problem was that summit told me to return my heads before i had new ones shipped, so i had to wait a few days and the temp changed drastically and even though i lubed the cylinders one still rusted up.

so i talked to summit tech support and he told me i would need to clean it with steel wool and a penetrant so i guessed that scotch brite would be a better alternative.

I held a shop towel in the bottom of the cylinder when i did it, and i had it sprayed with wd-40 so it didn't seem to make much dust and before i put it together i planned on going around the top of the ring with an air compressor hose and blow it out of the top into a shop towel. would this not be enough to clean my scotch brite mistake?
 
#16 ·
If you covered things like you said, I would not worry about it. Tthe block so that that cylinder is facing down and hose it out with brake cleaner, then an air hose. You'll be fine, it's the guys that don't even realize there is junk left behind and do nothing to stop it that have problems.

On thing not a whole lot of people know is a scotch brite speed secret, involves using it on a newly bored block. Take scotchbrite, wetted in solvent or Gunk engine cleaner and scrub the cylinder walls up and down in each cylinder until you can notice a definate smoother feel through the scotchbrite. This takes all the microscopic sharp points off the surface of the hone job alowing the rings to seal up faster and with less wear. Take you about 1/2 hour to do all eight.

New rings on a new honed cylinder would normally have to rub off all these micro peaks which wears into the rings at the same time.

My uncle taught me this years ago when he was sprint car racing, and I see it is also in David Vizards books.
 
#17 ·
I've used it before and had good success. Although I didn't use 'brand new' sheets of Scotch-brite pads, some that were worn slightly. For a lubricant, I've used fuel-oil and then wiped up/down with laquer thinner, then a VERY thin coating of gear lube (just because stuff like WD-40 evaporates too quickly) to stay in the surface until the piston assy can be installed.

I just picked up a Vortec 350 that had a bad h/g and water poured from 2/4 spark plug holes. Pulled head, cleaned the mating surfaces with my Scotch-brite discs on the end of a diegrinder and cleaned the cyl with an older pad using carb cleaner and air to blow out the residue from the top rings, keeping rags to contain it.

And even had used the flex-hone with HOT soapy water as a lube then the gear lube while the block was still in the car! Just covering the crank with rags and steam pressure after. They ran fine for months with no smoke and good mileage before selling for another project..

I've been amazed with tearing into a engine that I knew ran well (to freshen up) and seeing years of crap either in the lifter valley or rocker area that you would think, HOW THE HECK DID THIS RUN SOO GOOD?.. But it did and did for hundreds of thousands of miles. Its' kinda like the goof that eats and drinks and smokes and parties and seems to live to make your life miserable (who never goes away) and the guy down the street who is a tri-athelete who dies of a heart attack during a race..
To me, that 'little particle' thing doesn't make sense seeing otherwise.

I'd go ahead and do it, just don't go nuts with it.. The crosshatch only is there to hold some oil until the rings seat. Like I stated above, I've torn into motors that the cyls were almost shiny, but the compression was good and didn't burn through the rings..
I know your NO GOOF, Use common sense and save some money.

E
 
#18 ·
#19 ·
well, if the cross hatching is just there for the rings to seat i'm guessing they're seated, the motor probably has over 10,000 miles on it now. But it is very clean on the inside and i intend to keep it that way. the first time i took the heads off to put the summit heads on the pistons were still reflective in most places like they were just put in a few months ago

and when vacuuming the cylinders some of the carbon came out and revealed the shiny surface again

what all should i do to get this carbon buildup off of my pistons so it doesn't break loose and score my cylinder walls up?

and tomorrow i'll wipe the wd-40 out and use something else, i never knew that before, but now that i read that post i realized that the things i spray lots of wd-40 on seem to get sludgy after a while
 
#20 ·
I just remembered something :drunk: As i stated i have used scotchbrite several time and i never did have any problems either. :eek: But what i remembered about my friends engine was it wasen't scotchbrite he was using when i told him not to it was while he had the heads off he was cleaning it all up with a wire brush on the end of a drill and i told him not to use that because the little slivers of wire would get down in the engine. And he went ahead and did it anyway and when he called me with his problem we found the little wire pieces in the oil-pump. Sorry about my brain fart. :spank: But i have learned and read where they say not to use scotchbrite or anything that can come apart and leave pieces in the engine. But like eric said if you are careful and clean it out you should be ok. I was just stating the what if factor in it all. Just trying to help that's all. :thumbup: :D


Cole
 
#22 ·
does anyone have thoughts on what i should do to prepare the deck for mounting the cylinder heads? i know the deck was machined the first time the engine was put together, the code was machined off, but now i've taken the original head of, and the replacement head, so this is the third time heads will be bolted on.

will this be a problem?
 
#24 ·
ericnova72 said:
The biggest evil with ScotchBrite is those little 2" bonded cookies used on a mandrel pad on a die grinder. They throw large bits of crap everywhere, and will mess up machined surfaces in a hurry(especially aluminum).
one of the OEM's (I think it was GM) put out a service bulletin a few years ago that basically said that those were not allowed to be used in their service department at all anymore because they were getting too many claims of damaged engines and other parts from the fall out from them.

As far as the original issue. Stop, don't do anymore. Really, the only way to fix what you've done at this point is to disassemble the whole thing and clean it out. If not, you've definitely shortened the life of the engine, whether it's by a few thousand miles or if it will fail the next few hundred miles depends on how much work you did.

Not sure about the WD40 thing, will read the thread later, but in general, my lube of choice to prevent and to clean up minor rust is ATF (any reasonable amount from sitting around for a couple of days you should be able to wipe off with a cloth soaked in the stuff). Steel wool is probably much safer, and some good, high quality emery type sand papers are somewhat better (something that fractures as you use it like garnet paper is the same or worse than the scothbright), but you really want to avoid using any kind of an abrasive in an engine.
 
#25 ·
recnepswilliams said:
does anyone have thoughts on what i should do to prepare the deck for mounting the cylinder heads? i know the deck was machined the first time the engine was put together, the code was machined off, but now i've taken the original head of, and the replacement head, so this is the third time heads will be bolted on.

will this be a problem?
If you don't have any gasket residue to deal with contact cleaner works well. If you have gasket residue I would simply manually scrape off anything that you can catch a fingernail on, don't worry about "gasket fingerprinting" which is essentially dye from the gasket that has absorbed into the steels porous upper surface...usually the contact cleaner will take care of it but if its not a deposit don't worry about it.
 
#26 ·
For deck 'clean-up' just get a little box of straight razors and push the edge (away from you, NOT toward you) with minimum pressure. The edge will curl under before any 'digging in' of the cast iron. (Just be VERY CAREFUL on aluminum blocks/heads) Just keep the angle pretty low. Not more than 20deg.
the thin blade will bend some versus a big, thick gasket scraper or sharpened putty knife that just loves to dig in JUST when you don't want them to.

Remember that where the 'fire ring' around the H/G does the sealing of the cyl pressuer. Depending on the blocks/head condition, you may have pitting of the surface from the coolant over time. If this pitting can be detected where it would be under that fire ring, have it decked.
Now, that would entail taking the whole engine apart and delivering it to a shop etc.. Then one has to make sure they have the same deck hight on both sides. That would be a crapper, that one side is lower than the other..

I've used the little wire wheels/grinders many times throughout the decades and a neat little trick is to use a can of cheap shave-cream to fill up everything from intake ports to stud holes (Did you ever use a blow nozzle to clean out a clogged EGR passage, and all that carbon just BLOWS EVERYWHERE!! Yeah, you thought that you were smart!! :D )

After the porting/cleaning/repair you can just suck it out with a shop-vac with all the debris (well, most. the rest a rag can usually handle)
Now I don't think that Joe Gibbs racing would use it but when times are tough... There usually isn't much residue at all left over.
Which brings me to another area. Cleaning the Head stud/bolt holes. A pistol cleaning kit/rod for say a 40cal. on a cordless drill and some brake clean usually will get all that sealer/anti-seize out. Semi-hardening material usually takes a little more effort (products like Lock-tite will be best removed by a bottoming tap, and then the cleaning process) The 'wire' is usually a brass or bronze, and the wires themselves are alot longer so they tend to bend over rather break off (jsut as long as you don't change direction all the time)
I'd hate for you to get it all nice looking and have a couple head bolts not torque down enough because of a little crap in the hole NOBODY LIKES CRAP IN THE HOLE. :p
In addition, the dead holes are one thing, the 'through' holes will just drop the sealer down into the block. If and I know sometimes one can't but after most everything is bolted up for the coolant, run some water (NOT A HOSE) through the block/heads/intake with the drain plugs out in the middle of the block by the pan-rail to get some of the floating sealer bits out. You don't want to clog any radiator passages with it, overheat and blame it on the job you just did.. Radiator flush doesn't break that silicone sealer down. It just floats around.
Now You could start the bore brush at the bottom first and come back up with the threads. That way all/most the 'stuff' will end up on the deck that can be easily wiped/blown off.

And not knocking the others but, the top ring only has a gap of usually .012-.018+, so I'd doubt that lots of crap got down past them. It's what gets in between the ring lands. But about 120-180psi of compressed air should work.

(It's the extended running of a bad tune that builds up carbon soot mixed with other contaminants that will build up behind the rings and slowly force them out and over time, wearing the cyl walls uneven like a reverse hour-glass.
BUT that's a different thread..

I got confidence in ya.. I think you'll be fine. Just take your time and go over things, even take a buddy too! (leave the beer for after though)

E
 
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