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Another question about Black Paint.

5K views 23 replies 9 participants last post by  shine 
#1 ·
Ok, This may have been discussed in this forum before, but I haven't seen it yet. What I'm wondering is what type of paint had the best buffed out black. I'm not talking about brand. I'm just trying to find out if old lacquer, acrylic enamel, single stage or even Base/coat clearcoat had the best depth in black.

It's probably a question better answered by older painters. I've heard that rubbed out/buffed black lacquer looks better than newer Base/coat clearcoat black.

I'm asking this because the next time I paint an all black car, I'm going to cut/buff the entire vehicle, and try to get the best glass finish as possible. If I should stick with Base coat/Clear coat then just let me know. So yeah, I'm asking for a bit of a history lesson.
 
#5 ·
I may just have to try that single stage black out. How well does single stage hold up to the elements of everyday weather? The more I see single stage paint jobs that lay out smooth without buffing, the more I like it.

I've never sprayed single stage, but I have plenty of experience with Base coat/clearcoat. Is single stage easier to buff than bc/cc?
 
#6 ·
The single stage actually provides better UV protection over bc/cc. Clearcoat has hardly any pigmentation in it provide good UV protection.

To get maximum depth in your finish wetsand with no courser than 1000 after you paint and let cure overnight. Then reshoot the car again, then cut and buff. You’ll be amazed at the depth and gloss you’ll achieve. It’ll be a mirror finish when done. Pretty much like milo,s photo in his post.
 
#7 ·
The project pictured is straight out of the paint booth and required no buffing. It is necessary to use all the additives to attain the enhanced gloss. (Pass on the FEE)

It sprays like a quality clear and after a quick drop coat it goes on wet on wet...

If your going to buff it be sure and nib and cut it with 1000 after 24 hours but not later than 72 hours.. Then let it gas out another 12 hours then re-sand with 2000 and buff as usual.

Have a NEW respirator for this stuff and a clean paint room.

http://www.bapspaint.com/docs/psheets/PPG/Automotive/Deltron/P-204.pdf

It would be well worth painting a practice panel first...

you can do it!
 
#8 ·
ss urethane is preferred by many over bc/cc. simply because of appearance. in time the clear coat will get fine scratches in it which will give the car a cloudy look. light bouncing off the black under the clear. this does not show as much in ss . cutting and buffing is no different . both will give you the same quality .

depth is achieved by the clarity of the finish. not paint type or # of coats .

pigment has nothing to do with uv protection.
 
#9 ·
shine said:
ss urethane is preferred by many over bc/cc. simply because of appearance. in time the clear coat will get fine scratches in it which will give the car a cloudy look. light bouncing off the black under the clear. this does not show as much in ss . cutting and buffing is no different . both will give you the same quality .

depth is achieved by the clarity of the finish. not paint type or # of coats .

pigment has nothing to do with uv protection.
Everything shine posted except the last sentence I accept.

Urethane clearcoat offers little UV protection. Generally when a manufacturer informs you a clear has UV protection it will have added a UV tint to it and they caution the tint will affect colors such as white and yellows by shading them with a slightly brownish look in their tech sheets. Sikkens is notorious for this effect and requires that every paint job unless a complete paint job is to be performed to blend all work.
 
#11 ·
You may be right, although, I’m not totally convinced.

Here’s my problem. All single stage automotive paint regardless of whether its enamel, urethane or acrylic lacquer is labeled as UV protected. Urethane clear however, unless labeled otherwise is not. Meaning no additive has been added obviously.

The reason this is a problem is that I find it hard to believe that any of these corporations would spend the money to add an additional additive when it is notoriously known they chinch on everything they produce. Therefore, If they’re not adding a UV protectant as I seriously suspect then I can only assume the pigmentation in the colors is the reason for the protection they claim.

I may be wrong here but I don’t think so.
 
#12 · (Edited)
cjperotti said:
Sikkens is notorious for this effect and requires that every paint job unless a complete paint job is to be performed to blend all work.
Funny, my uncle has a shop that has been using Sikkens for 20 years and has NEVER had the problems you discribe. Sikkens is a TOP shelf product. And who's tech sheet states that their clear will change certain colors? The clears that do this are amber colored. Sherwin Williams had a clear that was like this years ago.
 
#14 ·
cjperotti said:
That's what I'm talking about and it wasn't so long ago. I've never used their clear myself although I've sprayed their basecoat. I never claimed it was a bad paint. Just clear problem as mentioned.
Whos base coat have you used and not their clear? There is some confusion here. :confused: I'm talking about SW clear being amber and it did change whites,silvers,golds. Gave them a yellow tint. NEVER ,EVER had that problem with Sikkens. Sikkens matches BEAUTIFUL!
 
#15 ·
cjperotti said:
You may be right, although, I’m not totally convinced.

Here’s my problem. All single stage automotive paint regardless of whether its enamel, urethane or acrylic lacquer is labeled as UV protected.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As simple as possible, ALL SS paints have UV inhibitors added.
SS paints are nothing more then clear with a dispersion additive to keep the pigment from settling out.
BK



Urethane clear however, unless labeled otherwise is not. Meaning no additive has been added obviously.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

ALL Urethane clears have UV inhibitors added, there is a 30 year old saying, the most expensive thing in a gallon of clear is the UV inhibitors.
Most automotive clears have two different UV's added.
UV additives can range from $10 a lb to the high side for a 479 of $179 a lb.
BK

The reason this is a problem is that I find it hard to believe that any of these corporations would spend the money to add an additional additive when it is notoriously known they chinch on everything they produce. Therefore, If they’re not adding a UV protectant as I seriously suspect then I can only assume the pigmentation in the colors is the reason for the protection they claim.
-----------------------------------------
If I can defend all of the accused, if UV inhibitors were not added and lets take a silver base as not to be extreme, like a red or black and also assume the base color of silver is a 7-8 fastness rating, that is considered the best and most expensive pigment. Fastness is a rating of heat and color hold out and another example would be say a 5-6 rating, industrial grades that are normally used for items that stay inside, such as phones, computers, lamps, in other words not exposed to the suns UV rays, remember UV's do not bend, you cannot get a sun tan laying under your car or in the house.

We spray this base with the best clear money can buy but it has no UV inhibitors, here is what we know.
Silver, in the SW or SE with full sunlight every day, the color will be dead inside of 2-4 weeks, up north might go a month.
BK

Yellowing:
The resin plays more of a role in this then the UV inhibitors, the more clarity the core resin has the more it costs, it is very expensive to go with the best but still not as expensive as UV's.
Can UVs cause yellow cast, sure but unlikely a company is going to over do the UV as one they are very expensive and two you get to a point of no payback.
Ciba recommends a percentage of both kinds by weight of solids and of course the higher the solids the more uv's are used if it is a good grade clear, games do get played in this area for sure.

BK

Hope this helps.
 
#16 ·
Underground said:
Whos base coat have you used and not their clear? There is some confusion here. :confused: I'm talking about SW clear being amber and it did change whites,silvers,golds. Gave them a yellow tint. NEVER ,EVER had that problem with Sikkens. Sikkens matches BEAUTIFUL!
Really, You've got numberous post from I don't know how many members here all boosting about SPI clear. SPI produces basecoat?
 
#18 ·
Never mind Underground we’re not getting anywhere with this dialog.

BarryK, thanks for the information. I wasn’t aware that resins were in the formula. And your explanation of cost for UV additives rings true and explains a few things. Particularly why I’ve noticed that after a car has been painted the clear starts to break down after about 12 years. Some do go longer but do gradually break down nevertheless.

Well shine, I stand corrected.
 
#19 · (Edited)
cjperotti said:
Never mind Underground we’re not getting anywhere with this dialog.

BarryK, thanks for the information. I wasn’t aware that resins were in the formula. And your explanation of cost for UV additives rings true and explains a few things. Particularly why I’ve noticed that after a car has been painted the clear starts to break down after about 12 years. Some do go longer but do gradually break down nevertheless.

Well shine, I stand corrected.

Glad to help, this is a very complicated subject and a lot of factors involved.

One note that I left out so as not to turn this into a book but I feel it is very important. Yellow cast of panels when blending.

Take a new BMW and let say you need to spot the door and then of course you would clear the whole door.
That BMW came from the factory with somewhere between 4 and 5 mils of paint including the ecoat, base and clear.
So we spot the base in and now shoot two wet coats of clear, depending on clear solid content you may be putting on 1.5-3.5 mils of clear per coat, the vette I just did i was averaging 3.7 mils per coat, so lets say 2 mils, we now have 4 mils of clear on the door over the factory clear butted up to the quarter with a paint total of say 5 mils. All colors will change with light reflection but it is the whites, some silvers and pastels that the naked eye will see a flop in certain light, that may give a yellow shade or cast.

Proper way, spot your first coat of clear over the base and stop a few inches from the edge of the panel, then do one full wet coat over the whole door.
 
#20 ·
Wow, lots of good info in this thread.
If I might add; the UV additives are actually UV 'absorbers',
that convert the UV rays into heat. This conversion takes place
in the very top layer of the paint film, thereby saving the paint
that's underneath. And the effect does wear out over time,
in extreme instances causing the clearcoat to peel and the
underlying pigment to fade.

Just my opinion, but I think a single stage paint would be more
durable because it can be buffed out, giving a newer layer of
UV inhibitors after every buffing until all the paint film is rubbed off....
 
#22 ·
Runnin'OnEmpty said:
Wow, lots of good info in this thread.
If I might add; the UV additives are actually UV 'absorbers',
that convert the UV rays into heat.
----------------------------------------------
This is true, that is why a black car will get hotter then a white car because the carbon in black is a natural absorber and white reflects.
BK

This conversion takes place
in the very top layer of the paint film, thereby saving the paint
that's underneath.
------------------------------------------------
Not really, the addition of a Hals gathers the free radicals and stops the migration or delays the migration to the top.
BK

And the effect does wear out over time,
in extreme instances causing the clearcoat to peel and the
underlying pigment to fade.
--------------------------------------------------
Actually its is the breakdown of the pigment that causes the clear to fail be it poor UV protection of the clear or a poor pigment usage in the base.
A chemical fact is, a color with cheaper pigments, no matter how good the clear is, it cannot protect the pigment like it should.
That is why you will see experienced painters go ballistic at the mention of a cheap base on here, they been there and done that.
BK

Just my opinion, but I think a single stage paint would be more
durable because it can be buffed out, giving a newer layer of
UV inhibitors after every buffing until all the paint film is rubbed off....
-----------------------------------------------------------------
If SS is nothing more then clear with a dispersion additive and a 20-25% pigment load, why would this be any different then a clear?
Another note, pigment has no strength and if you are displacing resin with pigment to a 20% ratio, would that make it weaker then a full strength clear?
What about a single stage, would the pigments be exposed to the elements?

This is not my dog fight as what is best SS or base clear but will say this, BOTH have their positive points and negative points but one system does not fit all, it depends what the car is used for as to witch system is best.
There is no clear cut answer and a whole bunch of factors to consider before choosing a system.
BK
 
#23 ·
BarryK said:
Runnin'OnEmpty said:
Wow, lots of good info in this thread.
If I might add; the UV additives are actually UV 'absorbers',
that convert the UV rays into heat.
----------------------------------------------
This is true, that is why a black car will get hotter then a white car because the carbon in black is a natural absorber and white reflects.
BK

This conversion takes place
in the very top layer of the paint film, thereby saving the paint
that's underneath.
------------------------------------------------
Not really, the addition of a Hals gathers the free radicals and stops the migration or delays the migration to the top.
BK

And the effect does wear out over time,
in extreme instances causing the clearcoat to peel and the
underlying pigment to fade.
--------------------------------------------------
Actually its is the breakdown of the pigment that causes the clear to fail be it poor UV protection of the clear or a poor pigment usage in the base.
A chemical fact is, a color with cheaper pigments, no matter how good the clear is, it cannot protect the pigment like it should.
That is why you will see experienced painters go ballistic at the mention of a cheap base on here, they been there and done that.
BK

Just my opinion, but I think a single stage paint would be more
durable because it can be buffed out, giving a newer layer of
UV inhibitors after every buffing until all the paint film is rubbed off....
-----------------------------------------------------------------
If SS is nothing more then clear with a dispersion additive and a 20-25% pigment load, why would this be any different then a clear?
Another note, pigment has no strength and if you are displacing resin with pigment to a 20% ratio, would that make it weaker then a full strength clear?
What about a single stage, would the pigments be exposed to the elements?

This is not my dog fight as what is best SS or base clear but will say this, BOTH have their positive points and negative points but one system does not fit all, it depends what the car is used for as to witch system is best.
There is no clear cut answer and a whole bunch of factors to consider before choosing a system.
BK

Hit the nail on the head with all of it and the one about cheap bases is so true.


read this peeps!

when you go out and by Ur cheap *** Nason or Omni bases you are buying Junk :nono:
 
#24 ·
trying to explain paint technology on this web site is a waste of time. it's sad that such a great site has gone to **** over the years and lost so many industry professionals . like them i am done trying to help the hobby guy and having to argue with car lot bodymen and infomercials. the last bit of advice i will give the do it yourself guy is to find another source for information unless you want your hotrod to look like your neighbors Yugo.
 
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