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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-11-2011 07:15 AM
shine trying to explain paint technology on this web site is a waste of time. it's sad that such a great site has gone to **** over the years and lost so many industry professionals . like them i am done trying to help the hobby guy and having to argue with car lot bodymen and infomercials. the last bit of advice i will give the do it yourself guy is to find another source for information unless you want your hotrod to look like your neighbors Yugo.
01-11-2011 06:47 AM
Hotbo [QUOTE=BarryK]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Runnin'OnEmpty
Wow, lots of good info in this thread.
If I might add; the UV additives are actually UV 'absorbers',
that convert the UV rays into heat.
----------------------------------------------
This is true, that is why a black car will get hotter then a white car because the carbon in black is a natural absorber and white reflects.
BK

This conversion takes place
in the very top layer of the paint film, thereby saving the paint
that's underneath.
------------------------------------------------
Not really, the addition of a Hals gathers the free radicals and stops the migration or delays the migration to the top.
BK

And the effect does wear out over time,
in extreme instances causing the clearcoat to peel and the
underlying pigment to fade.
--------------------------------------------------
Actually its is the breakdown of the pigment that causes the clear to fail be it poor UV protection of the clear or a poor pigment usage in the base.
A chemical fact is, a color with cheaper pigments, no matter how good the clear is, it cannot protect the pigment like it should.
That is why you will see experienced painters go ballistic at the mention of a cheap base on here, they been there and done that.
BK

Just my opinion, but I think a single stage paint would be more
durable because it can be buffed out, giving a newer layer of
UV inhibitors after every buffing until all the paint film is rubbed off....
-----------------------------------------------------------------
If SS is nothing more then clear with a dispersion additive and a 20-25% pigment load, why would this be any different then a clear?
Another note, pigment has no strength and if you are displacing resin with pigment to a 20% ratio, would that make it weaker then a full strength clear?
What about a single stage, would the pigments be exposed to the elements?

This is not my dog fight as what is best SS or base clear but will say this, BOTH have their positive points and negative points but one system does not fit all, it depends what the car is used for as to witch system is best.
There is no clear cut answer and a whole bunch of factors to consider before choosing a system.
BK

Hit the nail on the head with all of it and the one about cheap bases is so true.


read this peeps!

when you go out and by Ur cheap *** Nason or Omni bases you are buying Junk
01-11-2011 04:22 AM
BarryK [QUOTE=Runnin'OnEmpty]Wow, lots of good info in this thread.
If I might add; the UV additives are actually UV 'absorbers',
that convert the UV rays into heat.
----------------------------------------------
This is true, that is why a black car will get hotter then a white car because the carbon in black is a natural absorber and white reflects.
BK

This conversion takes place
in the very top layer of the paint film, thereby saving the paint
that's underneath.
------------------------------------------------
Not really, the addition of a Hals gathers the free radicals and stops the migration or delays the migration to the top.
BK

And the effect does wear out over time,
in extreme instances causing the clearcoat to peel and the
underlying pigment to fade.
--------------------------------------------------
Actually its is the breakdown of the pigment that causes the clear to fail be it poor UV protection of the clear or a poor pigment usage in the base.
A chemical fact is, a color with cheaper pigments, no matter how good the clear is, it cannot protect the pigment like it should.
That is why you will see experienced painters go ballistic at the mention of a cheap base on here, they been there and done that.
BK

Just my opinion, but I think a single stage paint would be more
durable because it can be buffed out, giving a newer layer of
UV inhibitors after every buffing until all the paint film is rubbed off....
-----------------------------------------------------------------
If SS is nothing more then clear with a dispersion additive and a 20-25% pigment load, why would this be any different then a clear?
Another note, pigment has no strength and if you are displacing resin with pigment to a 20% ratio, would that make it weaker then a full strength clear?
What about a single stage, would the pigments be exposed to the elements?

This is not my dog fight as what is best SS or base clear but will say this, BOTH have their positive points and negative points but one system does not fit all, it depends what the car is used for as to witch system is best.
There is no clear cut answer and a whole bunch of factors to consider before choosing a system.
BK
01-10-2011 09:37 PM
cjperotti You pretty much have it wrapped up there.
01-10-2011 09:33 PM
Runnin'OnEmpty Wow, lots of good info in this thread.
If I might add; the UV additives are actually UV 'absorbers',
that convert the UV rays into heat. This conversion takes place
in the very top layer of the paint film, thereby saving the paint
that's underneath. And the effect does wear out over time,
in extreme instances causing the clearcoat to peel and the
underlying pigment to fade.

Just my opinion, but I think a single stage paint would be more
durable because it can be buffed out, giving a newer layer of
UV inhibitors after every buffing until all the paint film is rubbed off....
01-10-2011 05:53 PM
BarryK
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjperotti
Never mind Underground weíre not getting anywhere with this dialog.

BarryK, thanks for the information. I wasnít aware that resins were in the formula. And your explanation of cost for UV additives rings true and explains a few things. Particularly why Iíve noticed that after a car has been painted the clear starts to break down after about 12 years. Some do go longer but do gradually break down nevertheless.

Well shine, I stand corrected.

Glad to help, this is a very complicated subject and a lot of factors involved.

One note that I left out so as not to turn this into a book but I feel it is very important. Yellow cast of panels when blending.

Take a new BMW and let say you need to spot the door and then of course you would clear the whole door.
That BMW came from the factory with somewhere between 4 and 5 mils of paint including the ecoat, base and clear.
So we spot the base in and now shoot two wet coats of clear, depending on clear solid content you may be putting on 1.5-3.5 mils of clear per coat, the vette I just did i was averaging 3.7 mils per coat, so lets say 2 mils, we now have 4 mils of clear on the door over the factory clear butted up to the quarter with a paint total of say 5 mils. All colors will change with light reflection but it is the whites, some silvers and pastels that the naked eye will see a flop in certain light, that may give a yellow shade or cast.

Proper way, spot your first coat of clear over the base and stop a few inches from the edge of the panel, then do one full wet coat over the whole door.
01-10-2011 05:36 PM
cjperotti Never mind Underground weíre not getting anywhere with this dialog.

BarryK, thanks for the information. I wasnít aware that resins were in the formula. And your explanation of cost for UV additives rings true and explains a few things. Particularly why Iíve noticed that after a car has been painted the clear starts to break down after about 12 years. Some do go longer but do gradually break down nevertheless.

Well shine, I stand corrected.
01-10-2011 05:18 PM
Underground
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjperotti
Really, You've got numberous post from I don't know how many members here all boosting about SPI clear. SPI produces basecoat?
I'm not understanding your ramblings I never mentioned SPI.
01-10-2011 05:08 PM
cjperotti
Quote:
Originally Posted by Underground
Whos base coat have you used and not their clear? There is some confusion here. I'm talking about SW clear being amber and it did change whites,silvers,golds. Gave them a yellow tint. NEVER ,EVER had that problem with Sikkens. Sikkens matches BEAUTIFUL!
Really, You've got numberous post from I don't know how many members here all boosting about SPI clear. SPI produces basecoat?
01-10-2011 05:06 PM
BarryK [QUOTE=cjperotti]You may be right, although, Iím not totally convinced.

Hereís my problem. All single stage automotive paint regardless of whether its enamel, urethane or acrylic lacquer is labeled as UV protected.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As simple as possible, ALL SS paints have UV inhibitors added.
SS paints are nothing more then clear with a dispersion additive to keep the pigment from settling out.
BK



Urethane clear however, unless labeled otherwise is not. Meaning no additive has been added obviously.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

ALL Urethane clears have UV inhibitors added, there is a 30 year old saying, the most expensive thing in a gallon of clear is the UV inhibitors.
Most automotive clears have two different UV's added.
UV additives can range from $10 a lb to the high side for a 479 of $179 a lb.
BK

The reason this is a problem is that I find it hard to believe that any of these corporations would spend the money to add an additional additive when it is notoriously known they chinch on everything they produce. Therefore, If theyíre not adding a UV protectant as I seriously suspect then I can only assume the pigmentation in the colors is the reason for the protection they claim.
-----------------------------------------
If I can defend all of the accused, if UV inhibitors were not added and lets take a silver base as not to be extreme, like a red or black and also assume the base color of silver is a 7-8 fastness rating, that is considered the best and most expensive pigment. Fastness is a rating of heat and color hold out and another example would be say a 5-6 rating, industrial grades that are normally used for items that stay inside, such as phones, computers, lamps, in other words not exposed to the suns UV rays, remember UV's do not bend, you cannot get a sun tan laying under your car or in the house.

We spray this base with the best clear money can buy but it has no UV inhibitors, here is what we know.
Silver, in the SW or SE with full sunlight every day, the color will be dead inside of 2-4 weeks, up north might go a month.
BK

Yellowing:
The resin plays more of a role in this then the UV inhibitors, the more clarity the core resin has the more it costs, it is very expensive to go with the best but still not as expensive as UV's.
Can UVs cause yellow cast, sure but unlikely a company is going to over do the UV as one they are very expensive and two you get to a point of no payback.
Ciba recommends a percentage of both kinds by weight of solids and of course the higher the solids the more uv's are used if it is a good grade clear, games do get played in this area for sure.

BK

Hope this helps.
01-10-2011 05:02 PM
Underground
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjperotti
That's what I'm talking about and it wasn't so long ago. I've never used their clear myself although I've sprayed their basecoat. I never claimed it was a bad paint. Just clear problem as mentioned.
Whos base coat have you used and not their clear? There is some confusion here. I'm talking about SW clear being amber and it did change whites,silvers,golds. Gave them a yellow tint. NEVER ,EVER had that problem with Sikkens. Sikkens matches BEAUTIFUL!
01-10-2011 04:46 PM
cjperotti That's what I'm talking about and it wasn't so long ago. I've never used their clear myself although I've sprayed their basecoat. I never claimed it was a bad paint. Just clear problem as mentioned.
01-10-2011 03:45 PM
Underground
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjperotti
Sikkens is notorious for this effect and requires that every paint job unless a complete paint job is to be performed to blend all work.
Funny, my uncle has a shop that has been using Sikkens for 20 years and has NEVER had the problems you discribe. Sikkens is a TOP shelf product. And who's tech sheet states that their clear will change certain colors? The clears that do this are amber colored. Sherwin Williams had a clear that was like this years ago.
01-10-2011 12:38 PM
cjperotti You may be right, although, Iím not totally convinced.

Hereís my problem. All single stage automotive paint regardless of whether its enamel, urethane or acrylic lacquer is labeled as UV protected. Urethane clear however, unless labeled otherwise is not. Meaning no additive has been added obviously.

The reason this is a problem is that I find it hard to believe that any of these corporations would spend the money to add an additional additive when it is notoriously known they chinch on everything they produce. Therefore, If theyíre not adding a UV protectant as I seriously suspect then I can only assume the pigmentation in the colors is the reason for the protection they claim.

I may be wrong here but I donít think so.
01-10-2011 09:27 AM
shine uv protection is an additive . nothing more. pigment has nothing to do with it. it is the pigment that fails without it.
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