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Shortage of Acetylene!

50K views 162 replies 27 participants last post by  stich626 
#1 ·
I just went to fill my acetylene tank and found out that it is being rationed because of the plant that produces the carbinde in it burnt a while ago!

Holy crap-o-crap, that sucks. Thank goodness for the MIG but damn I wanted to fire up my torch.

Brian
 
#77 ·
Red,
I bought my burning table at an auction, so I didn't get any literature with it. It came with 40 or so of the 2 piece tips, all in a wood block that was marked with tip number and thickness range. Seemed like everything I cut always required some fiddling with speeds and pressures to get a good cut.

I had some parts to cut from 5" thick plate one time, so I decided it'd be best to start with new tips. Went to the local supply house that actually knows something about what they're selling (unlike Airgas here) and when the guy told me what size tips I needed, I thought immediately the size was different than what was marked on my wood tip storage block.

He told me the single biggest problem in burning is that people tend to use tips that are too big for freehand and ones that are too small for machine cutting. I got a couple tips, and he gave me a manufacturer's sheet on the proper size for various thicknesses and machine use. Cut that 5" stuff slicker than you could bandsaw it, and using the cheat sheet for the rest of my cutting made it run without any fiddling around, and with better cut quality than I'd ever gotten in the past.

Any sort of reaction that produces free oxygen would seem to me the last sort of thing one would want to use for gas welding, even if it would produce enough heat. Sort of like trying to weld with an oxidizing flame, which we both know don't work out so great :D
 
#78 ·
I have an Airco Mapp setup I got off Ebay for $40. takes a small Mapp cylinder and has a Mapp regulator. I have a 20CF oxygen tank to feed the oxygen.. Heats up bolts and things just fine. The tip on it that came with it is actually a welding tip, tho I have never tried to gas weld with it.. I don't have a cutting tip/ torch yet... I'v also used propane cylinders with it, and I have the adapter to refill the small cylinders with a 20lb cylinder, and could also get an adapter hose from the sporting goods store to use a 20lb cylinder on it, which might not be a bad idea..

As for the Acetylene shortage. The way I see it is, Magnegas has been around since 2005ish ( quick google search shows refrence to it in that year ). meanwhile I have never heard of it, and thus is probably only marginally profitible. Magnegas spreading a " The End of Acetylene is near " rumor when the lack of Calcium Carbide is only effects a small fraction of Acetylene production.. This is the only way Magnegas can gain a profit margin, because those people would be switched to a magnegas setup even after Acetylene became more available.. Just my .02 cents
 
#80 ·
Acetylene gas gone-What now?

Concoa made all the Airco style equipment, still makes it under the Concoa label. This equipment will work with all fuel gases. All you do is change the cutting tip, regulators are OK with propane, propylene , natural gas etc. Propylene can be used to braze and weld with but doesn't like the smaller #00-#0 welding tip sizes. Check out their website, www.concoa.com
Hope this helps,
 
#81 ·
Dogman said:
Propylene can be used to braze and weld with

Propylene has been around a long time and some places have promoted it as a welding gas but that simply is not true, not by a long shot. Propylene is hotter than LP and can be used for brazing but the flame chemistry is wrong for welding steel and it will not do so, anyone who has tried should be able to attest to that!
 
#82 ·
MARTINSR said:
I am hoping I can get some using my employers account at a different welding supply. We just got our ox/ace tanks exchanged this past monday and nothing was said. At my source (where I have been going for thirty years) I was told unless I have an "account" (as in charge account) I simply couldn't get any, period. So I will be calling who we use at work and see if I can get any there.


Brian
I'm sure all welding supplies will handle this a little different. Customers that we have who have service agreements with us naturally will get the product first due to contract obligation. Some suppliers are going to be in better shape than other so they may not here of a shortage for some time. Most of us are using such small amounts of Acetylene that our tanks won't run out until everything is resolved. If you have and need to exchange you might have to look around and work a deal with your employer. Our bigger customers will receive 50% of what they normally would take for now. It makes the product go farther and stop people from panic ordering large amounts so you and I can't have any. Once again see if you can run alternative fuels, usually it's just a tip change, ask you supplier. We are always glad to teach our customers to run alternative fuels, providing they are not gas welding.
 
#83 ·
oldred said:
Tube, your assessment of the true shortage is an echo of what my sources, who are in the gas business, were telling me. Also I have used LP for years as a cost effective alternative to Acetylene and my experience with mechanized burning equipment is that the LP was every bit as fast as Acetylene, but somewhat slower if cutting free-hand, and the cut was extremely clean in either instance! I did not look at all the specs on this gas (Mangegas) but for sure temperature is one thing and BTU's per lb is quite another, high heat with twice the fuel consumption is not much of a deal. The fact is that Acetylene (C2H2) has unique physical properties that are a tough act to beat and despite the usual wild claims and mis-information when a new fuel gas comes along Acetylene is the only fuel that can be adjusted to a true neutral flame allowing for maximum fuel economy and the unique ability to weld without contamination.


The Mangegas pitch points to the excess of O2 as a plus but it seems to me that it could cause more problems than any small benefits it might offer, which would be what?
LP is always a great choice. LP makes greater BTU's and is more readily available. We sell 3 other choices besides Acetylene. Fuel mixture is a science it takes a certain amount of Oxygen molecules vs. fuel molecules to crate a neutral flame. Yes you can get a true neutral flame with any gas it science. Acetylene uses 2 parts O2 to 1 part Acetylene. Propane and fuel gases use about 4 to 4.5 to 1 O2 to fuel. This is only to get the neutral flame though. Oxygen is the cheaper gas as well. Remember that the cutting is only achieved with the oxygen, the fuel your using has almost no effect on the cutting ability. The fuels only job is to get the metal to a kindling temperature so you can introduce the oxygen.
Everyone will say their alternative fuel is the best, the newer Chemtanes and StarFlame 2 (Same Gas) is the more advanced of the alternatives, we sell all of them. Remember to buy a correct tip to run your Propane based fuels.
 
#84 ·
oldred said:
Propylene has been around a long time and some places have promoted it as a welding gas but that simply is not true, not by a long shot. Propylene is hotter than LP and can be used for brazing but the flame chemistry is wrong for welding steel and it will not do so, anyone who has tried should be able to attest to that!
Your absolutely correct, You actually need the hydrocarbon in Acetylene to create a fluxing action to be able to weld mild steel..
 
#85 ·
matt167 said:
I have an Airco Mapp setup I got off Ebay for $40. takes a small Mapp cylinder and has a Mapp regulator. I have a 20CF oxygen tank to feed the oxygen.. Heats up bolts and things just fine. The tip on it that came with it is actually a welding tip, tho I have never tried to gas weld with it.. I don't have a cutting tip/ torch yet... I'v also used propane cylinders with it, and I have the adapter to refill the small cylinders with a 20lb cylinder, and could also get an adapter hose from the sporting goods store to use a 20lb cylinder on it, which might not be a bad idea..

As for the Acetylene shortage. The way I see it is, Magnegas has been around since 2005ish ( quick google search shows refrence to it in that year ). meanwhile I have never heard of it, and thus is probably only marginally profitible. Magnegas spreading a " The End of Acetylene is near " rumor when the lack of Calcium Carbide is only effects a small fraction of Acetylene production.. This is the only way Magnegas can gain a profit margin, because those people would be switched to a magnegas setup even after Acetylene became more available.. Just my .02 cents
Don't know much about the gas you are mentioning? As far as Mapp gas it has been discontinued, the Dupont company in Ontario Canada that made nylon rope product shut down. Their byproduct was what was used to make Mapp Gas. You could weld with Mapp Gas because it was related to the Acetylene family. You will still see products at box stores called Mapp because the trade name was purchased. This isn't Mapp product though and it even discloses this on the label and Bingo you won't have any luck welding with it. Hope this helps. I had worked for Victor Equipment (torches) for about 12 years. Victor and Smith will work on alternatives with a tip change, Some of the Harris kits will too but a lot of the Harris torches are specific to the gas. Acetylene will be back on line shortly, We will all live.. I'll never make commission unless i'm selling everyone Acetylene.. $$$$LOL
 
#86 ·
TubeTek said:
Red,
I bought my burning table at an auction, so I didn't get any literature with it. It came with 40 or so of the 2 piece tips, all in a wood block that was marked with tip number and thickness range. Seemed like everything I cut always required some fiddling with speeds and pressures to get a good cut.

I had some parts to cut from 5" thick plate one time, so I decided it'd be best to start with new tips. Went to the local supply house that actually knows something about what they're selling (unlike Airgas here) and when the guy told me what size tips I needed, I thought immediately the size was different than what was marked on my wood tip storage block.

He told me the single biggest problem in burning is that people tend to use tips that are too big for freehand and ones that are too small for machine cutting. I got a couple tips, and he gave me a manufacturer's sheet on the proper size for various thicknesses and machine use. Cut that 5" stuff slicker than you could bandsaw it, and using the cheat sheet for the rest of my cutting made it run without any fiddling around, and with better cut quality than I'd ever gotten in the past.

Any sort of reaction that produces free oxygen would seem to me the last sort of thing one would want to use for gas welding, even if it would produce enough heat. Sort of like trying to weld with an oxidizing flame, which we both know don't work out so great :D
tips in a cutting machine should last many years if you take care of them. hand cutting users tend to abuse. Check out your torches to see if they are designed as a multifuel use or LP only. Torch height for piercing and cutting is important so you don't roll the top edge (Melt). Have fun with your cutting table I have sold many of them...Hopefully it's making you money everyday.. Your right brand X has some issues right now..
 
#87 ·
plasmadogg said:
Fuel mixture is a science it takes a certain amount of Oxygen molecules vs. fuel molecules to crate a neutral flame. Yes you can get a true neutral flame with any gas it science.

I think we are talking about a different definition of a neutral flame. :) While you are certainly correct that any fuel gas can be adjusted to what we normally call a neutral flame condition, complete combustion without excess Oxygen, it is not quite a truly neutral flame from a chemical standpoint allowing by-products to contaminate the weld and only Acetylene has this unique property.
 
#88 ·
plasmadogg said:
As far as Mapp gas it has been discontinued, the Dupont company in Ontario Canada that made nylon rope product shut down. Their byproduct was what was used to make Mapp Gas. You could weld with Mapp Gas because it was related to the Acetylene family.


You will still see products at box stores called Mapp because the trade name was purchased. This isn't Mapp product though and it even discloses this on the label and Bingo you won't have any luck welding with it

Thanks for clearing up that one, there was a discussion about that here not long ago and some insisted that Mapp was still available. I had seen those little throw-away tanks, well one anyway when the plumber was at my son's house, and I had noticed that the stuff did not smell the same (how could a person forget the smell of Mapp! :pain: ?) and the burn was different.

As far as welding with the stuff, well yes you could- sort of, but the weld was contaminated and of very poor quality. Because of the quality, or lack of actually, of any weld made with the stuff IMHO it was not a weld quality gas. Certainly the welding characteristics was not anywhere near pure Acetylene and it produced a weld of such inferior quality I personally could see little use for it as a welding fuel, for sure it should not have been used for body panel welding or anything requiring a quality weld.
 
#89 ·
Had to dig out my old welding tech manual to be sure I had the equations right. :)

A TRUE neutral flame results when Acetylene (C2H2) combines with Oxygen (O2) to form Carbon Monoxide and Hydrogen (C2H2 +O2 = 2CO + H2). This then causes a double reaction that produces 2CO +O2 = 2CO2 and 2H2 +O2 = 2H20 which forms water vapor and Carbon Dioxide. Acetylene is the ONLY fuel gas that can active this truly neutral flame and as a result is the ONLY gas that is really suitable for welding.


The bottom line is that Acetylene will produce this true neutral flame while any other fuel gas will produce an excess of something, what depends on the chemical composition of the gas but those by-products from combustion of the other fuel gasses is why none has Acetylene's unique ability to weld.
 
#91 ·
I think what some people are going to discover is that aside from welding Acetylene is not all that necessary for the home shop use and that a switch to something else was overdue anyway due to cost, that is as long as they have no need for a welding gas. For the home shop LP just can't be beat for convenience and price.
 
#92 ·
Wow I missed a lot on here. It's been a hell of a week. haven't been able to read all the new replies yet but I will when I get home. I've been talking to magnegas alot this week and red is right. No steel welding with it. I was hoping for a yes but not really expecting one. But his reply to me was the same one I had, who the f-- gas welds anymore. Lol I'm know there are a few of you left in the world though. I'm pleased to announce that I have about 80 tons of carbide headed to me from overseas finally. I'm using my down time to rip out my old '67 A-twin acet generator and putting in my '90 ATX2400 generator that has been sitting in my warehouse for about 4 years now. As far as magnegas goes it may not be the ultimate thing for the occasional home user but I think it's awesome. It's green it's recycled it's nowhere near as toxic it's cheap and it's the next best thing to acetylene. They are keeping price down because they want a foothold in the market plus really it doesn't cost that much to produce. You guys can make your own decisions about it. I saw a post about the shortage being fabricated. It's not. Trust me. I got about five distributors about to run out who can't get anything filled anywhere without signing a five year commitment and being on 50% allotment. Some places do still have it and some of the big outfits still have a supply but for how long is the question. Maybe some people will never notice and I'm happy for them but I'm feeling the crunch. With 32k knocked off my income each month you can see why. I'm not alone either. But anyway that's what I found out and take it for what it is
 
#93 ·
I hope the explanation made sense of why Acetylene is the only gas that can achieve (NOT ACTIVE like I had in the other post, dang FireFox spelling correction got me again! :mad: ) a true neutral flame and is thus the only gas that is practical for welding steel. I am not the best at explaining a complex action like that and copying the entire text from the tech manual was simply too long and actually even more confusing IMO.
 
#94 ·
J&MCylinderGases said:
his reply to me was the same one I had, who the f-- gas welds anymore.

A lot more people than you might think! It is a very good way to weld body panels and some top bodymen like MartinSr, who started this thread concerning that very purpose, often uses this method. Also muffler shops, some roll cages and other tubing structures and actually a lot more home welding than you might think. I use it a lot for welding exhaust (hey, the old coat hanger trick will work ONLY with Acetylene!) lawn mower repair and once I even welded an airplane fuselage (J 3 replica) which is still a very common (and approved) method used among sport aircraft builders. There are several advantages to welding 4130 tubing with Acetylene as opposed to MIG and it is arguably equal to TIG welding in quality for that purpose, I think it's a bit premature to announce the death of gas welding! :)
 
#95 ·
I joined just to respond to your post. :welcome:

J&MCylinderGases:

32K is a substantial dent!

Once you are up and running you might want to post in welding forums like Weldingweb, the Hobart, and the Miller forums so any folks in your area who need acetylene know where to get it.

I find acetylene production really interesting but I've never worked at a plant since I'm just an end-user. Cool move having that Rexarc as a spare. Neat old company.

Same as this one?

http://www.rexarc.com/calendar.aspx?a=71

How quickly will you go through eighty tons of carbide?
 
#96 ·
How about that figure of 15% of US production of Acetylene comes from Carbide, is that an accurate figure? That is what I was told by more than one person in the business but could they all have been quoting from the same source? I was a bit surprised and still a bit skeptical about that figure but if it is true then 70% of the production of Carbide that supplies only 15% of the Acetylene is what was lost, a dip in the supply for sure but would that account for all of the shortage? Are those figures accurate?
 
#97 ·
of the 80 tons im getting 40 is mine and 40 is going to illinois to some friends up there. i use about 7-9 tons a week but i'm hoping to get a ton more business once i get up and going so that maybe it'll go in 3 weeks so i can make some recoup money. i'm hurtin here guys. i'm trying not to lay guys off because with this **** economy i'm down to bare bones anyway.

as far as gas welding it really must be a regional thing or i just dont have any customers who do it that i know of. and i'm not proclaiming the death of acetylene. you can never replace acetylene completely but in my neck of the woods its getting a little scarce so we gotta try new ways to get things done. i hope no one took me wrong about it. i really didnt see anyone welding with gas except the old timers but i could be underestimating the market.

as far as 15% of the market being carbide is waaaay low i think. i know that carbide industries fed about 40% of the market and i also know Praxair has been importing carbide from White-Martins in brazil for many many moons. I'm not as sure about airgas but i think they are on the chemical acetylene like western but i also heard the other day that one of their plants they get the synthetic acetylene from went down. i have no idea how true that is but thats what carbide industries says. my price from carbide industries doubled because they are now importing carbide from south america at 1300 bucks a ton from the estimates i get. i'm getting it cheaper though. maybe this will work out for the better and i may can supply some people and get my profit margin on acetylene up because its not very high when your dealing wholesale. my direct ales make it profitable though. but yeah i think 15 percent is waay low. its gotta be in the 60's at least. i'm hoping this thing isnt as bad as we speculated but its not over. it's really only beginning. hopefully the home/hobby guy never really sees it too bad but like i said i'm getting worried. i'm still 25 days out till my delivery.
 
#99 ·
J&M, that's more in line with what I was thinking at first but when I started calling around when this first came up I was being told that only 15% was from Carbide anymore and 80% was from Natural gas/Methane and one source insists that only 10% is from Carbide. Don't know what these guys are smokin but I was REALLY surprised that Carbide accounted for so little of the production, your version of the carbide production percentage sure sounds more realistic!
 
#100 ·
matt167 said:
I have an Airco Mapp setup I got off Ebay for $40. takes a small Mapp cylinder and has a Mapp regulator. I have a 20CF oxygen tank to feed the oxygen.. Heats up bolts and things just fine. The tip on it that came with it is actually a welding tip, tho I have never tried to gas weld with it.. I don't have a cutting tip/ torch yet... I'v also used propane cylinders with it, and I have the adapter to refill the small cylinders with a 20lb cylinder, and could also get an adapter hose from the sporting goods store to use a 20lb cylinder on it, which might not be a bad idea..

As for the Acetylene shortage. The way I see it is, Magnegas has been around since 2005ish ( quick google search shows refrence to it in that year ). meanwhile I have never heard of it, and thus is probably only marginally profitible. Magnegas spreading a " The End of Acetylene is near " rumor when the lack of Calcium Carbide is only effects a small fraction of Acetylene production.. This is the only way Magnegas can gain a profit margin, because those people would be switched to a magnegas setup even after Acetylene became more available.. Just my .02 cents

magnegas went public about 2 years ago. they have been in welders journal and a few more welding publications since then. they are not "creating" the shortage only responding to it by trying to get a foothold while they can. thats simple business. when youre trying to break into a market and you see a chance you use it. call airgas or praxair or western and ask them if the shortage is real. i'm not downing anyone for their opinion but magnegas is not trying to scare people into buying a product or anything like that. more and more places are picking up on it because they can treat their wastewater and produce their fuel gas at the same time. as they get the word out there and the refineries get going more its going to make a difference.
 
#101 ·
oldred said:
J&M, that's more in line with what I was thinking at first but when I started calling around when this first came up I was being told that only 15% was from Carbide anymore and 80% was from Natural gas/Methane and one source insists that only 10% is from Carbide. Don't know what these guys are smokin but I was REALLY surprised that Carbide accounted for so little of the production, your version of the carbide production percentage sure sounds more realistic!

yeah only two of the majors are using the synthetic stuff. they have a decent share of the market but definately not 85-90 percent
 
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