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Topic Review (Newest First)
05-24-2011 08:41 AM
tech69 keep the production tips coming, I could use them. Just got the call and it's official.

I'll get $20 an hour commission and he says they'll bust my arse. He liked my restoration experience for the mud slinging aspect so I guess the mud slingers they do have are probably the older guys who are too busy fixing the train wrecks. I'm happy cause in restoration it's the same thing over and over and in Ca you don't get a lot of rust work, which is the fun stuff. So here I can better myself in being well rounded, and plus it makes icar classes more relevent as they're an icar gold shop.
05-24-2011 08:20 AM
MARTINSR Like I have said Henry, there is little difference to me as a tech, you "restore" that 2008 Honda back to original the same way as a 1962 Impala.

One thing that amazes me is how much I learned in collision that would have really helped me in the years I was doing custom and restoration work. There are a LOT to learn from the collision ways to do much better restoration work much faster, there are a LOT of very valuable methods to learn.

Brian
05-23-2011 09:29 PM
tech69 looks like I might be joining the dark side(production). Can't beat em join em, eh?

no money in restoration unless you're the owner or work at the best.
05-22-2011 09:46 AM
tech69 I wouldn't be surprised by how straight they get their work cause I can get it just as straight. For most dents it takes me two apps of filler so if a guy puts two coats of 2k and that's it the difference is just one more app of skim coat.

I think production guys get overwhelmed cause they aren't accustomed to waves in the metal, shear amount of dents, and hood/decklid supports. Just stuff you don't see in production. With that said, I'm sure they have all the tear down techniques you can dream of and weld good on paper thin metal.

btw, the shop I work at is a small restoration shop but we do work from all around the country. Anyhow, everyday I drive by this huge production shop that's known and they park their restorations outside and you can always see that very slight wavy ness. Having a solid process that's efficient isn't easy for production shops. I've been banging my head over it getting mine down and it didn't happen overnight. This process also means every hand on it must have the same pride and skill as you otherwise one mistake will hurt the process. You know all of this though. I'm just saying, I've seen the best production techs lay turds in restoration, and probably the same can be said about vice versa.
05-22-2011 09:17 AM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by tech69
Any tech that's good at restoration can fix an isolated dent in production. It's a cake walk and most times they replace the part that's why so many production techs stumble when they get a classic car...they're overwhelmed.

As far as classics go, I like doing my own blocking. They can take the credit in the end.

btw, no you didn't say I was wrong. I had some beers last night. My perception was off but it sounded like you were saying it's unusual even for classic cars when it's quite common.
I honestly don't see how restoration work and production work is really any different, but you are absolutely right, your average collision guy couldn't do a nice restoration to save his life.

I came from the restoration side over to the collision side so I guess I see things different. I have always looked at collision repair AS restoration work. I mean, come on, if you are repairing a crunched 2009 Chevy Equinox aren't you "restoring" it back to original? What is the difference between that and "restoring" a 65 Mustang back to original? Obviously they are vastly different in the process, but the CONCEPT is exactly the same. I personally don't see the difference but many collision shop guys don't get it, you are right there.

As far as getting body work straight, you would be very surprised at how straight the guys where I work get their body work. The paint dept runs the show in this regard, you had better have the bodywork done good enough to finish it off in ONE two coat application of primer or you are getting it back to make it good enough.

I'm with you on doing your own blocking and paint prep work. I did it all for years so I am used to it, and honestly, I LOVE that final work. Bringing the work to paint perfect to me is a jazz, I love it. There is no guessing, there is no faking it, it is either right or wrong.

Brian
05-22-2011 08:55 AM
tech69 Any tech that's good at restoration can fix an isolated dent in production. It's a cake walk and most times they replace the part that's why so many production techs stumble when they get a classic car...they're overwhelmed.

As far as classics go, I like doing my own blocking. They can take the credit in the end.

btw, no you didn't say I was wrong. I had some beers last night. My perception was off but it sounded like you were saying it's unusual even for classic cars when it's quite common.
05-22-2011 08:43 AM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by tech69
lots of TOP NOTCH restoration shops use poly primer. If you're saying I'm wrong, you're sayin bj's , gearhead, capital auto, redstar(custom), lugos, etc...is wrong.

I say you're right about PRODUCTION but you're speaking as if it's for techs that can't nothing straight. We hold car shows this summer and you're close....bring your best work and let's compare!

most classic cars greatly benefit from poly primer. I've busted my arse enough on them to know.
Were exactly did I say you were wrong? Never did I say you were wrong. As for "Production shops" who can't get anything straight, honestly that is where the bodyman has to get it straighter in most places I have worked. The paint shop hasn't the time to be repairing the bodyman's work. You get it near flawless leaving the filler in 180 with zero pin holes. The paint shop applies a couple of coats of urethane primer and blocks it to perfection. In most restoration shops the painter and his prep work is where this step is accomplished. He painstakingly primes and blocks it to perfection, sometimes with multiple applications of primer and blocking. And of course for a REAL show car or restoration the level of perfection is higher in how straight it needs to be as well. But it's the painter who usually puts it there with blocking primer. In the production shop the bodyman has to get it to VERY close so the paint shop need only apply one application of primer and a quick block to get it "production shop" quality. Often this is very very good, on a one year old $60K car you bet your butt it has to be pretty good. And they do this with one application of a few coats of primer over 180 sanded filler work with zero pin holes.

But it is much easier for a number of reasons, the rest of the panel is perfect because it has only the one dent being fixed in a near new panel, the paint is very thin being it has never been repainted so it's easier to feather out are a few of the reasons.


But honestly, I never said you were wrong. It is a good choice when doing a restoration and you have filler all over the panel and you have had to sculpt out body lines and such, it's a great choice. We have a 67 Chevelle for the boss at work right now that will probably get polyester primer over the entire thing. As my last line said... "It is a choice, an option and not horribly wrong or anything like that."

Brian
05-21-2011 09:48 PM
tech69
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
Tom, it's pretty hard to tell you what you need without being there to touch it and see exactly what you have.

Polyester primer is for SUPER high filling (primer wise) it IS like spraying "bondo". You could literally, I mean LITERALLY tape a dime on the fender and bury it with four or five coats of some polyester primers.

Polyester primer is great for something like a tailgate or firewall where you have a bunch of body lines and it is covered in dents or imperfections. You work out the plastic filler ("Bondo") with course paper (40 or 80) using much less time than finer paper and you don't don't have to apply a polyester putty or something to fill pin holes and those large scratches. You spray a few coats of poly primer on it and it is MUCH easier to work with than the body filler or poly putty.

It's great for bodies or parts that will need a skim coat of filler over the entire thing, you just can't replace polyester primer for stuff like that.

But for "regular" body work where your filler work is nice and finished off in 180 as it should be poly primer is a serous overkill. It's MUCH harder to sand, much harder to feather, it is just harder work with.

So feathering out paint around filler work if done properly, urethane primer is PLENTY and is done every single day in high quality shops all over the world.

Poly primer is a KILLER workhorse. I have done tests where I abused it big time, applying it over 36 grit scratches and painted black right over the top after preparing it with the proper finer grits and found ZERO shrinkage months later. The stuff is a killer workhorse. But it is not needed with most body and paint work.

It is a choice, an option and not horribly wrong or anything like that.

Brian
lots of TOP NOTCH restoration shops use poly primer. If you're saying I'm wrong, you're sayin bj's , gearhead, capital auto, redstar(custom), lugos, etc...is wrong.

I say you're right about PRODUCTION but you're speaking as if it's for techs that can't nothing straight. We hold car shows this summer and you're close....bring your best work and let's compare!

most classic cars greatly benefit from poly primer. I've busted my arse enough on them to know.
05-21-2011 11:19 AM
milo You know the NCP 280 primer is a self leveling primer right?
Builds mostly where needed while it's still wet and moving.
Hard to explain, kinda like explaing gravity .. But it's nice to have gravity on your side...
05-21-2011 09:30 AM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by texastomeh
Guys,

I didn't mean to "poke the bear"!!

I am just looking to shoot some Polyester and long board blocking it to mainly help straighten/flatten some panel "rolls/waves". I thought that Poly would be easier and faster than "spread-on" filler. I've already filled and feathered the low "spots' and "dents".

HELP!!!!

Tom
Tom, it's pretty hard to tell you what you need without being there to touch it and see exactly what you have.

Polyester primer is for SUPER high filling (primer wise) it IS like spraying "bondo". You could literally, I mean LITERALLY tape a dime on the fender and bury it with four or five coats of some polyester primers.

Polyester primer is great for something like a tailgate or firewall where you have a bunch of body lines and it is covered in dents or imperfections. You work out the plastic filler ("Bondo") with course paper (40 or 80) using much less time than finer paper and you don't don't have to apply a polyester putty or something to fill pin holes and those large scratches. You spray a few coats of poly primer on it and it is MUCH easier to work with than the body filler or poly putty.

It's great for bodies or parts that will need a skim coat of filler over the entire thing, you just can't replace polyester primer for stuff like that.

But for "regular" body work where your filler work is nice and finished off in 180 as it should be poly primer is a serous overkill. It's MUCH harder to sand, much harder to feather, it is just harder work with.

So feathering out paint around filler work if done properly, urethane primer is PLENTY and is done every single day in high quality shops all over the world.

Poly primer is a KILLER workhorse. I have done tests where I abused it big time, applying it over 36 grit scratches and painted black right over the top after preparing it with the proper finer grits and found ZERO shrinkage months later. The stuff is a killer workhorse. But it is not needed with most body and paint work.

It is a choice, an option and not horribly wrong or anything like that.

Brian
05-21-2011 08:53 AM
tech69 not an issue but it is more absorbent than a 2k. If you final it with a 2k you won't be wet sanding it.
05-21-2011 07:44 AM
deadbodyman My mistake...That makes a lot more sense...You wouldnt believe the things I've seen people do with this product,filling dents is just one of them...
It hasnt been mentioned but when it first came out we had a lot of come backs because we wet sanded it and it absorbed water ..but,it might not be an issue any more with the new formula...
05-20-2011 11:02 AM
texastomeh DBM wrote:
Quote:
you havent mentioned anything about filling your dents just featheredging
I had written:

Quote:
I've already filled and feathered the low "spots' and "dents".
and

Quote:
the "dents" and "dings" have been filled and feathered
THANX for all the help and suggestions!!

Tom
05-20-2011 06:25 AM
deadbodyman any primer that I would use or suggest would only be my personal opinion.what you should do is start a new thread and ask that question.This way you'll get everyones opinion of their experiances with different brands.I use two brands of urathane primer for production work and only one for super straight high quality work...SPI has about the best urathane high build primer Ive used so far ,it sands easy and it shrinkage is minimal ,its great for blocking a whole car down and gettting everything super straight...It is a little to thick for my production work though because for that I use a poly putty (evercoat) in place of primer for blocking ,its cheaper and faster for me ,when I prime its sanded with 320 -400 so I need a thinner primer not for straightening but filling any small scratches and something for the paint to stick to...

you havent mentioned anything about filling your dents just featheredging them.something that would help you imencely would be to guide coat "Everything" at "Every" stage of the operation,it'll be a lot faster and easier and take a lot of the guess work and mystery out of this. for instance guide coat your first coat of eopxy to find your high and low spots work the metal the best you can (this part is what really seperates the old timers from the newbies) on the bigger dents and waves use bondo (I like evercoats z grip) on your smaller stuff that doesnt need much filling use a poly putty (like evercoats ez sand).sand with 80..Guide coat your bondo and putty....re prime when done with more epoxy (Spi is great stuff) guide coat the epoxy and block again (180)(I like the black epoxy with a white guide coat) depending on everything you did so far and the kind of shape the car was in determines what kind of primer comes next...if you have any epoxy left use it all up,Spi can be use as a fill primer and you dont want to waste it by leaving it unused.many times you wont need any other primer but if its not straight enough use the urathane high build primer,guide coat and keep blocking with 180 ...this should get you in the ballpark for wet (block) sanding 320-400 ...You cant go wrong with SPI primers ,they're not super expensive and are of the highest quality and they have a tel,# you can call to get instant answears to any questions that can arise...You can use lower quality,cheaper materials and still get good results but this is a lot of work and no pro would take a chance on them.plus using cheaper, low end materials might even mean extra work...its just not worth it..But start a new thread and see what everyone else says they like ,weigh the pros and cons and make an informed decision based our knowlage and your budget..None of us know everything and whats right for me might not be right for you...
05-19-2011 12:00 PM
texastomeh
Quote:
Maybe you should have asked :whats the best primer to use before you bought the feather fill
GOOD POINT!!

Well, I'm asking now! What is the best primer and/or product/method to use for filling(?)/smoothing(?) relatively minor panel "ripples"(?)/"waves"(?) once the "dents" and "dings" have been filled and feathered? I have already overcoated with SPI Epoxy Primer.From what I had read using the SEARCH function and the Evercoat website, I thought that FEATHER FILL was to way to go, but appears I may have been wrong.

BTW: I HAVE NOT bought the Feather Fill yet!!

Thanx,

Tom
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