|04-23-2014 05:03 PM|
I'm sorry you feel that way Shine, you have some good paint advice to give and it would be a loss if you leave the site.
At the same time, I think that we all need to be ready for a challenge, so that our information will be the best that we can give. With the price of products today, I for one do not want to be responsible for someone making a mistake.
JFTR, I have been using phosphoric for 25 years, but I wasn't familiar with the data sheets on these two, so the links that I posted were the MSDS sheets, its just to show where the info came from , and make it easy for anyone who wants it. Because if you are going to play with fire, then you need to know how to control it. Its not rocket science but it is chemistry, and not being a chemist, I need to be able to find accurate information.
If it turns out that we don't see you anymore, then thank you for the info on Chemical Guys, I may to try it. Be well, Shine.
|04-23-2014 07:48 AM|
this is the last time i'm going to post on this site. but here is my " opinion "
new guys come here for advice. it's the paint and body section. their hope is to get some help from experienced paint and body tradesmen .
but what they get is confused by all the google experts and wannabe's trying to make rocket science out of cleaning metal . or my favorite , use battery acid on it . the best advice i could give them is to see how far away from this place they could get. i've seen more bad advice than good here lately. i did not come here 10 years ago to win a popularity contest i came here to interact with tradesmen . but i have watched them leave one by one . there is a point where it is just a waste of time . i'll argue with a tradesman all day long because at the end of the day one of us is going to learn something . but arguing with paint salesmen or google experts gets me nothing .
i truly hope these new guys ignore this entire thread .
|04-23-2014 07:31 AM|
OK, here is my opinion, and it is just that----an "opinion"
The label does say 75%.
But it goes back to what I was talking about before, you can not trust labels.
If you look at the data sheet (MSDS), it says that information is not available.
"CHEMICAL IN PRODUCT:N/A; CAS#: N/A; WEIGHT % OF CHEM: N/A"
As I have said before, I'm not a chemist, so correct me if I'm wrong.
When I look at the MSDS for Ospho it's a different story.
In bold letters, it says PHOSPHORIC ACID SOLUTION (75%)
It makes me wonder if that is the reason for the low cost of Milkstone. They don't have the expense of the rust inhibitors, or have to worry about paint adhesion, so maybe they can get away with a weaker phosphoric solution to start their formula with.
The only other ingredients they list are cleaners for the milkstone, and liquid (containing phosphoric acid), so its possible that they could end up with a 42.25% phosphoric even though the original phosphoric solution is less than 75%. I think they probably just get a solution to suit their needs, whatever makes it come out to final solution percentages they want.
You can't really call this a "snake oil product" because they don't make any claims about rust removal, its all about cleaning milkstone as the name implies. So I would suggest a product formulated for rust removal.
Here is another reason for reading the data sheet
AVOID CONTACT WITH STRONG ALKALIES. (WILL PRODUCE VIOLENT ACID/BASE NEUTRALIZATION REACTION)
So don't try to neutralize phosphoric acid. All the data sheets seem to say the same thing about taking the acid off, JUST RINSE IT OFF WHILE IT IS STILL WET. I rewet it with acid before rinsing, to make sure some of it hasn't started to dry. In that state is still looks wet, but will be a little sticky, and thats not good for a complete rinse. Actually, I use a scotch brite pad wet with acid to scrub it just before rinsing, and that does a pretty good job of getting rid of it.
|04-22-2014 06:40 PM|
Yep I saw that when I went back and looked again. A bunch ado about nothing.
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|04-22-2014 06:35 PM|
They do state a 75% solution on the label:
|04-22-2014 11:19 AM|
The milkstone is obviously working for Shine, or he wouldn't be using it. Milkstone active ingredient= phosphoric acid.
Ospho active ingredient=phosphoric acid.
Phosphoric acid is phosphoric acid.
The ensuing chemical reaction doesn't care what color bottle it comes in, or what the label says.
|04-22-2014 07:18 AM|
Shine, please don't take this as a personal attack, I'm just expressing my opinion on the product, and I probably could have thought more about my approach. I guess its just not as easy to be polite and respectful with the pen as it is in person. Life is too short to be making other people miserable, and that was not my intention.
But this is a discussion forum where a lot of people come to get information. I don't think anyone knows it all, and I sure have my fair share of failed attempts at doing this or that, so if you guys disagree with any of my posts, I hope you point it out so others can be spared. And I will not take it to be an attack on me personally, and that is certainly not what I intended to do to you either Shine.
|04-22-2014 06:38 AM|
|04-22-2014 02:47 AM|
Shine it's not so much the percentage of phosphoric that bothers me about milkstone, its the lack of directions for use on carbon steel. The milk containers are stainless steel, so the mixture of milkstone (as the name implies) is targeted for cleaning the milk residue on stainless steel.
I even had to look up the meaning of milkstone in the encylopedia,
"milk‐stone Deposit of calcium and magnesium phosphates, protein, etc., produced when milk is heated to temperatures above 60 °C."
So that is the only thing the milkstone product mixture is designed to clean as far as I can tell, because they don't mention anything else. Ospho and some other rust removal products are designed for automotive work in removing rust, paint adhesion, and inhibiting the return of rust. And another thing that I mentioned earlier is the different versions of milkstone cleaners.
|04-21-2014 06:27 PM|
Don't keep it to yourself Shine, just PM me and we can share the info. I don't know enough about chemistry to care what the label says, as long as it works and does what I need it too do. If not for you and a few other people sharing information, I would still be using PPG products and 3M compound.......
|04-21-2014 05:51 PM|
|shine||i can promise you this much , the next time i find something that works well and saves some labor or money i will damn sure keep it to myself.|
|04-21-2014 03:50 PM|
But Pies are round, corn bread is square
|04-21-2014 03:49 PM|
|Lizer||Kelly--when in doubt, the answer is always 3.1415|
|04-21-2014 03:39 PM|
That is exactly what I thought Lizer Chemistry to me is like asking an algebra question, I done well in school with it, but have not used it in several years since and therefore, chemistry and algebra both appear to me as:
"You have 4 apples, 3 oranges, and 1 banana, there is a train leaving New York City traveling 62 MPH and a plane flying out of LA traveling 578.235 MPH, based on the given information, how many shingles are on your neighbors house?"
|04-21-2014 03:33 PM|
The way they have it stated/labeled is completely assinine. It's actually wrong. I'm a microbiologist converted to biochemist and have to make these calculations every day, but if someone like a junior scientist would pull something like this on me I'd be upset because it would really throw off my acid molarity. That's why I always double check their work.
If they were starting from an absolute stock, say pure crystalline phosphoric acid, they could achieve the 50-something percent, ie weigh out 56 grams and Q.S. to 100 ml with DI water. But here, when they're stating 56%, they're actually starting with a stock solution that's only 75% (I looked and 85% is the max solubility in water). So like you are saying, it's really 56% of a 75% stock, which brings you to the 42%. It works out the same if you use the C1V1=C2V2 formula which is what I use for calculations.
For the none chemistry types, take a cup of coffee that is 75% coffee grounds (eww). Now take a little bit of that and add it to a second mug so it's 56% of that mug volume, with water making up the rest of the volume. Now let it sit on the counter for a few days so the water evaporates. Assuming a 100 ml volume of coffee originally, you'd have 42g of grounds in your cup.
Bottom line, 42% vs. 45% as a discussion point is meaningless. They're practically the same.
But stating 56% phosphoric acid as an active ingredient is wrong, unless it stated on the front label it was 75% phosphoric acid stock and I just didn't see it.
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