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Black Work Van with old removed decal fade showing up- Way to eliminate this?

19K views 56 replies 9 participants last post by  Old Fool 
#1 ·
I've got a van that used to be a shuttle that is Black with lots of decals that have been removed. There is no adhesive residue left but it's got sort of a UV haze that has been left around the decals.

I gave it a good buffing and this brought the dead paint back to life and it was very hard to see where the decals were. However after a year it came back just as bad.

Is there a way to eliminate this?
 
#27 ·
Back in the 80's we were still using lacquer primer so that dont count.and a two tone painted edge is totally different ,its a much thicker edge...and nobody can can change the cure time of epoxy,it'll take 3-4 coats using epoxy ,two coats with 2k...
I'm not trying to pee you off shine I'm simply disagreeing with you and offering an easier ,cheaper and faster way ...as I said before your way works too...
 
#28 ·
at first mike we would feather the edge down . but the 1/2 tape line came back. not the paint edge . buzzing a 2 inch area down to metal was the only cure.
i use only epoxy to prime with . i do one good double coat then block the next day .

i would also not clear the black epoxy. a good ss black will serve you better.
 
#29 ·
777funk said:
Also DBM, I'll be spraying the whole van. I don't know if I mentioned that or not. But the entire van is pretty faded. It needs new paint. I suppose maybe I could sand back the clear and buff. Last time I just buffed with a medium compound and that took the faded look away but it came back.

I'm thinking the only way to get rid of it is to sand and repaint. I think my new plan is:
-Sand the decal areas to metal with 100 grit (I have lots of 100 disks).
-Sand the metal to 180 to refine the 100 a bit
-Sand the whole thing to 320 and scuff all paint

Then:
-Spray two coats of black SPI epoxy primer
-Spray two coats of Univeral Clear

If all is ok call it done. If it's got anything I don't like, sand it out and spray another coat of clear.
I wouldnt use the epoxy as a base coat and then clear if your trying to save a little money .use a single stage black no clear,that'll run you 200.00 The epoxy alone will cost that
 
#30 ·
shine said:
at first mike we would feather the edge down . but the 1/2 tape line came back. not the paint edge . buzzing a 2 inch area down to metal was the only cure.
i use only epoxy to prime with . i do one good double coat then block the next day .

i would also not clear the black epoxy. a good ss black will serve you better.
Thats tough enough Shine ,When I lived in Fla I had the misfortune of being within 10 miles of one of the biggest van conversion companies in the country and those things were the worst to do repairs on ,very shotty work and it seemed like everyone had one and just about all of then had those decals slathered all over them we had to do them quick and get them out ,they took up to much room...I have one in my shop right now ,had to build six 4' horses just to paint the roof,talk about a major PITA....Its the last dang van I'm going to do ,my back is too old for this stuff anything that makes a crappy job like this easier and faster I'm game for...I almost hired someone....almost :sweat: :sweat:
 
#31 ·
"plain? how a decal thats got paint and primer between it and the metal, could do anything to the metal..

it's a decal not an english wheel.."

Simple, actually watched this done to an aluminum fire truck, a major pi$$-off.

As you sand down the paint you will sand thru around the lettering/decal and sand down the metal leaving the pattern to show thru. You will actually etch the pattern into the metal to show thru FOREVER. It is lesser with steel but it will still show thru.

Be very careful to avoid this and hand block the panels before priming. All primers have solvent in them so they all shrink down.
 
#32 ·
deadbodyman said:
Back in the 80's we were still using lacquer primer so that dont count.and a two tone painted edge is totally different ,its a much thicker edge...and nobody can can change the cure time of epoxy,it'll take 3-4 coats using epoxy ,two coats with 2k...
I'm not trying to pee you off shine I'm simply disagreeing with you and offering an easier ,cheaper and faster way ...as I said before your way works too...

LACQUER... ahhh. Yes that may make a pretty big difference. I was thinking you were talking 2k. Oh yeah, lacquer shows anything underneath itself. It's not going to hide much. I use lacquer still very regularly and it's a very weak system. It's great in that it melts into itself but it also shrinks like crazy over time and anything underneath is going to show up eventually. Also back to melting itself, it could melt whatever was there before possibly. There are a lot of little details there that could create the right situation for the old decals to show themselves again. I can definitely understand the bird situation you described before happening with lacquer.

I wonder if this still applies to a 2k catalyzed finish as far as hiding the old sticker marks/ghosting.
 
#34 · (Edited)
shine said:
ok , explain it to me since i dont get it. 1/2 inch tape stripe removed , 2 tone edges feathered down. primed ,blocked painted. 1/2 inch stripe shows up.
That's a weird thing I realize but Lacquer tends to eat into plastics. So... and this is a guess here as I'm no chemist (just somewhat of a hack who's sprayed hundreds of gallons of NC lacquer over the last close to 10 years now) bu un-catalyzed finishes (solvent base) will eat up a plastic in direct contact and do some exchange. When I say eat up, I'm not sure what's eating what and it's not something you see on a large scale but it's there. For example, if I place a piece I've finished in NC lacquer on a piece of foam packing material (you know the white colored thin foam sheets that's used in shipping) the foam will leave a deep visible imprint on my nicely buffed lacquered piece. It's something that takes about 10 hours to happen and the longer it sits the worse the printing gets even to the point where I have to start over if it goes long enough. It's very obvious that something chemical is happening between the lacquer and the plastic material it was resting on.

So my guess (and just a guess of course) is that something in the pin stripe probably intermingled with whatever solvents were in the lacquer. How to pinpoint whatever it is is beyond me but I do know that weird things happen with un-catalyzed finishes.

But I'm talking NC lacquer. I don't know about Acrylic (wasn't that what you were talking about Shine)? I'm guessing since it's also not a 2k product, it also would have similar problems as far as not really ever becoming stable or fixed/catalyzed. I do know lacquer thinner will dissolve acrylics just like NC. So I'd think it'd have solvent exchange with plastics. Especially so since the plastic was applied at the factory when the solvents were still fresh and hot.
 
#35 ·
your just not going to listen . i've explained it now on 2 web sites. lacquer has nothing to do with it .

for anyone else following this. the tape was removed . the edge of the 2 tone did not ghost back but rather the stripe did. even though it was sanded down to factory primer. the metal took on the shape of the stripe due to exposure.

just as a metal patch will ghost in the sun sometimes. metal expands and contracts in the heat and uv .
 
#36 · (Edited)
shine said:
your just not going to listen . i've explained it now on 2 web sites. lacquer has nothing to do with it .

for anyone else following this. the tape was removed . the edge of the 2 tone did not ghost back but rather the stripe did. even though it was sanded down to factory primer. the metal took on the shape of the stripe due to exposure.

just as a metal patch will ghost in the sun sometimes. metal expands and contracts in the heat and uv .
No Shine, not trying to rile you and also not saying I'm not listening. But I agree with Deadbodyman that the fact that it was lacquer may very well have had something to do with it. I use lacquer all the time so I know how prone it is to reacting with plastics. If it's not catalyzed it WILL react with most plastics in contact. If you don't believe me do this, finish a piece of metal in lacquer (use 8-12 thinned coats since it's lacquer and evaporates), let it cure then set a roll of electrical tape on it for a week. And I'm talking just one week and watch what happens where you set the tape roll. I'd be surprised if you can sand it level and rebuff and not have it come back at least a few times after repeating the sanding and buffing process. And on the vehicles it had been on there much longer than a week which makes it even worse. The longer it sits, the worse it gets.

Now your theory about the metal expansion and contraction, not saying that it isn't so. I'm just saying that it's a theory. It very well may be the cause of this problem. All I'm saying is that when Deadbodyman mentioned the word lacquer, it put a whole different spin on this in my opinion of what I think is happening here.

I'd like to hear if others have experienced the ghosting with 2k.
 
#38 ·
shine said:
your just not going to listen . i've explained it now on 2 web sites. lacquer has nothing to do with it .

for anyone else following this. the tape was removed . the edge of the 2 tone did not ghost back but rather the stripe did. even though it was sanded down to factory primer. the metal took on the shape of the stripe due to exposure.

just as a metal patch will ghost in the sun sometimes. metal expands and contracts in the heat and uv .
Are you saying that it was sanded down to the factory primer, and not the bare metal? If this is the case, the metal has nothing to do with it. The factory primer is what was effected, not the metal. It's like when someone sands the scratch in paint down to the primer and then repaints and the "scratch" ghosts back. The primer was pulled off the metal by the force of the nail or what ever running over the paint. Sort of like if you put a piece of rubber sheet on the desk and run your finger over it and it will pull up off the desk with your finger looking like a snake.

If the primer wasn't sanded off under those stripes to bare metal, all bets are off as to it being seen later.

Brian
 
#40 ·
MARTINSR said:
Are you saying that it was sanded down to the factory primer, and not the bare metal? If this is the case, the metal has nothing to do with it. The factory primer is what was effected, not the metal. It's like when someone sands the scratch in paint down to the primer and then repaints and the "scratch" ghosts back. The primer was pulled off the metal by the force of the nail or what ever running over the paint. Sort of like if you put a piece of rubber sheet on the desk and run your finger over it and it will pull up off the desk with your finger looking like a snake.

If the primer wasn't sanded off under those stripes to bare metal, all bets are off as to it being seen later.

Brian
I think he said he sanded to bare metal.
 
#41 ·
shine said:
on second thought screw it .

Shine, you have to admit this sounds ludicrous. And if I said it and you hadn't experienced it, you would say I was off my rocker. It sounds that ludicrous.

I am just trying to understand what you are saying and it makes no sense. All I see in this last post is "it was sanded down to factory primer", well that isn't down to bare metal.

Then earlier you say that "1/2 inch tape stripe removed , 2 tone edges feathered down. primed ,blocked painted. 1/2 inch stripe shows up." and this makes perfect sense.

But much earlier you said "even the metal under it is effected by the decals." :confused:

I am sorry, just trying to understand this.

Brian
 
#42 ·
As I posted in the SPI forum, I have no intention to argue with anyone. I appreciate everyone's input and experience. That's why I asked.

Back to the original purpose in this thread... to get to the bottom of the best way to fix this problem. This is not a 1984 paint job nor lacquer. Whether or not the rules still apply as far as sanding to bare metal is something I'm very interested in finding out. Others should be interested too. If I did this every day like some on here do, I'd definitely be interested in saving time if I could.

Rules can change as time progresses and new technology is used. Not saying they have but if they have I'd like to know about it. No sense in sanding to bare metal and cutting into the E-coat if I don't have to. Also, I'd prefer not to have to go courser than 320 if I can avoid it and get away with just scuffing.
 
#43 ·
At this point a number of opinions have been given and you need to choose your path and get on with it.
Only time will tell if you are right or someone else was.
Continuing to argue the point to death is not productive, and it won't get you the answer you were hoping for.
 
#44 ·
Old Fool said:
At this point a number of opinions have been given and you need to choose your path and get on with it.
Only time will tell if you are right or someone else was.
Continuing to argue the point to death is not productive, and it won't get you the answer you were hoping for.
So far we only have only one actual experience with this issue discussed (Shine's). I am interested in other experience, specifically pertaining to modern finishes.

Someone who works with fleet vehicles would be the person to talk to (i.e. someone who converts retired cop cars to taxis etc).
 
#45 ·
Old Fool said:
At this point a number of opinions have been given and you need to choose your path and get on with it.
Only time will tell if you are right or someone else was.
Continuing to argue the point to death is not productive, and it won't get you the answer you were hoping for.
Ahhhh, and there lies the fact that a lot of people will fight with, post your opinion and discuss it, unless we are talking the sun comes up in the east and sets in the west most any process can be done a number of different ways. Present your case and there is no argument, no name calling, no BS. The other guy isn't wrong, he simply has another experience. This is the case most of the times there is a peeing match.

In this case, I can see both sides. I know that Shine is right on and that when you are dealing with scratches, tape lines, that sort of thing, strip it to bare metal is ALWAYS recommended by me as well. I just didn't get the "metal changes" thing. I think what it comes down to is sanding the stripe out, ESPECIALLY if you don't cut it to bare metal you are dying for problems because the sanding is removing the surrounding material BEFORE the stripe. So it may SEEM like it is flat and you have sanded the stripe out and you have sanding the stripe OFF, but that doesn't mean that you haven't left more primer UNDER where the stripe was! You have sanded more off the surrounding area so what you have is a "stripe" of higher material where it was!

I am thinking what Shine experienced is the same thing, but at the metal level. But anyway you look at it to remove it to bare metal and then prime it, and block it is going to be the best way to handle it in my opinion as well.

Brian
 
#46 ·
777funk said:
So far we only have only one actual experience with this issue discussed (Shine's). I am interested in other experience, specifically pertaining to modern finishes.

Someone who works with fleet vehicles would be the person to talk to (i.e. someone who converts retired cop cars to taxis etc).
LOL, who works on fleet vehicles is going to tell you peel the stripes or letters off and polish it. If the paint has changed in color under the stripes and letters sand it with 600 and put a few coats of color over it, done deal. :rolleyes:

But if you want for CERTAIN for that stuff to be gone you do as Shine said.

Brian
 
#47 ·
MARTINSR said:
LOL, who works on fleet vehicles is going to tell you peel the stripes or letters off and polish it. If the paint has changed in color under the stripes and letters sand it with 600 and put a few coats of color over it, done deal. :rolleyes:

But if you want for CERTAIN for that stuff to be gone you do as Shine said.

Brian
boy Brian's nailed that one..all we did at the detail shop when we took in a used commercial truck was peel the graphics and do a cut and buff and if it was good enough to make it to the used car lot it was good enough..for the best job sand to metal and feather and do a re-paint..

Nuff said..

Sam
 
#48 ·
shine said:
your just not going to listen . i've explained it now on 2 web sites. lacquer has nothing to do with it .

for anyone else following this. the tape was removed . the edge of the 2 tone did not ghost back but rather the stripe did. even though it was sanded down to factory primer. the metal took on the shape of the stripe due to exposure.

just as a metal patch will ghost in the sun sometimes. metal expands and contracts in the heat and uv .
Thats right,its not from the stripe being on lacqure paint because it also happens with ALL paints....I also have a theory.....as everyone knows water and weather are very abrasive...for example rocks and boulders are very hard but when they're in a stream they are smooth and rounded from the water wearing them down,old brick buildings are another example of how weather can wear down a hard surface...so when you put a piece of tape on a painted surface and then sand that surface then pull the tape off and sand it again then repaint it ....WALLAH,theres your ghost ,all around the tape was taken down just a little but the paint under the tape is untouched by the abrasives and is the same height as the day it was done.....Now since your sanding both levels at the same time they will remain different levels because even though they are both being sanded ,the same amount of material is being taken off at the same time....your basically doing the same thing the weather did but faster....so it either needs to be removed down to the metal (the best way) or sanded and filled (the second best but fastest way) ....
But after all is said and done you said it was a work van and I cant see doing it any other way being practical ,after all ,sanding the old paint and repainting isnt the best way to paint a car.,anybody that knows will tell you the best way to paint a car always starts with stripping the paint and starting fresh ...Its not very practical for everyday cars but it IS the BEST way
 
#49 · (Edited)
I don't believe there is any different "level" to speak of. If there is we are talking a few thousands of an inch, something that would sand out in a few quick passes of 600. No, I think we are talking about the UV break down of the film exposed as opposed to the area protected under a stripe.

When it is being sanded, it could cut easier because of the damaged integrity so it gets cut faster than the area where the stripe was. Then on top of that, the paint/primer that was exposed to the UV rays would also be more porous and absorb more solvents from the top coat put over it. So after painting it could "suck up" that solvents causing highs and lows in surface height as well as gloss, making those areas that where protected by stripes or letters stick out big time.

Without a doubt, removing all undercoat down to bare metal where the letters were would guaranty it wouldn't be back. But sanding it good and applying some primer over it MAY be good enough.

Unless there was VERY little expectations of the owner, it would be cut down to metal if it were me. Especially being black, ANYTHING is going to show up. Maybe not the day it is painted ("Oh heck yeah, this looks perfect, those guys were nuts" :rolleyes: as it rolls out of the booth) but a few months later, WHAM the guy is walking across the parking lot after picking up his morning donuts and can read what the sign said clear as day!

Brian
 
#50 ·
I can also see a guy trying to remove the stripes and letters, only to find out that they are all UV damaged too. He tries to peel them off and they don't come, breaking up with every little peel that comes up. He tries scraping them with a razor, and just keeps putting nicks in the paint. He tries heating it, rubbing it with an enamel reducer or lacquer thinner or what ever, nothing. So then he sands them off, NOW is a point without a doubt no thinking about it a second the paint, primer and everything to shiny bare metal has to come off. Because if he is sanding the tape stripes off without a friggin doubt he is sanding the surrounding area a heck of a lot more than where the stripe is. He could sand all the paint off and THINK he evened it out but there is no way, the surrounding area got sanded a LOT more before that stripe was sanded off and you would most certainly have those stripes and letters STILL there, in a 3D effect, which is NOT what you are after. :pain:


Brian
 
#51 ·
for brian and others who are smart enough to read and listen.
what we found over the years is the metal expands and contracts differently when covered by the vinyl. which creates a memory line in the metal . one trans am in particular was media blasted with plastic. no bird wanted . the car was etch primed and painted. after sanding and buffing the car was shipped. it came back a week later with a po'd owner with a bird on the hood. bring the car into the shop. next morning the bird was gone ???? put into the sun and a couple hours later there was the bird. i am no metal specialist so i have no idea why other than the above suggestion.

now i did not just pull this out of my ***. i have experienced it many times over the years. as have many others . 5 on another web site who also tried to give advice. i do not need an education on lacquer paint as i have sprayed as much maybe more than most on this board.

this has become common practice here. ask for advice then keep harping on it until you hear what you want. threads like this and the rustoleum threads is exactly what has run off the majority of the professional painters on this site.

hope it makes sense to you brian. it's all i got .
 
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