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Rebuild vs Crate???

17K views 32 replies 20 participants last post by  farna 
#1 ·
i have a 55 Bel air (210 with bel air trim, etc)

We just pulled the engine. Its a 327. GM 3903352.

The car has been sitting for years... like 6 or 7 years. Something was fubar in there. So i didnt have the time or $$$ to work on it.

While pulling the motor, the Flexplate almost fell off and hit me! So i really think that was the horibble sound i heard and why i stop driving it.

Now with the Engine out, im wondering what to do. im about to pull the intake off, then maybe the heads. theres some minor rust around the rockers.

Do i need to get the Heads/Block check..cleaned worked on?

I think these are the specs im not 100% sure

CID
327 67-68 Bore 4.001 or 4.000? / Stroke 3.250 / Main (crank shaft right?) 2.450 / Rod Jourla 2.100 / Actual 326.700 / Liters 5.350 / 2 bolt

(most of that is chinese to me! sorry Computers are my thing)

I dont have a ton of $$$ to put into it. Maybe sell this and buy a crate engine? Or maybe this doesnt need much work at all since the main issue was the Flexplate from the sound of it all... when the engine was running bad.

Cost to rebuild?? 500-1200+?

Cost for a Crate engine 1000-1200 with Warrantee.


My Bel Air/210 is a heavy car. I just want to Drive it around. Not trying to win Shows or be the fastest loudest car. So i dont need 400+hp

What would the best way to tackle this.

Thanks!

327-Rookie!
KevinMack
 

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#2 ·
Also... any thoughts on why the Flexplate broke?

Could it be problem with Tranny/Torque Convertor? Or maybe on the Engine side?

Or just old... had a weak point and broke all the way off...

If Engine would be better to get a new one than rebuild then?

all 6 bolts on the engine are still there with the innards of the flexplate.
 
#3 ·
Wow, I've never seen a flexplate broken like that. :smash: Although I have seen them with stress cracks at the holes where it bolts to the crankshaft.

No doubt the best money choice is probably just buy a service replacement (crate) engine. You can find these as rebuilt or new longblocks with at least a brief warranty. :thumbup:

If you were an experienced engine builder with good machine shop/parts resources you could easily rebuild for less (in most cases). But, since you are not (according to your post); you would likely find yourself dealing with a lot of headaches/mistakes/rip-offs/etc. :spank:

Now, if you have a lot of time, and you really, really, really want to build your own engine then by all means you should. There are many on here that will support you with good advice on resources for parts, machine work, and how to's that would make this enjoyable and affordable for you. :eek:

Oh and either way, you will need a new flexplate! :(
 
#5 ·
Thanks Starnest

I have a few mechanic friends, and my father was a greese monkey for 30 years. So its not totally out of the question to rebuild. I am handy...

Theres a good machine shop about a mile from my house, and Winchester Auto has a lot of Hot/Rat Rod guys. And the great communities of Hot Rodders.


Like i said, i believe the main issue is the flexplate. But sitting for 7 or 8 years might have some issues. New Water pump, Rust, water and Oil inside engine all that time.

Valves could be cleaned for cheap or new Heads? Alum. Heads for better preformance?


I guess where im at is. Flexplate 40-60 bucks. Maybe get the Heavy Duty one. Then if i could just pull the heads. Clean up best as i can. Lube it up? Do i...should i worry about the Pistons/Rings/bearings? anything to do with the Cam? New Gaskets 30-50 bucks? maybe 100 for HQ ones?

I can afford to dump 200-300 into this. maybe 400. but if i get to a point that it is trash, cant waste that much cash.

Or if i could get this all rebuilt and Pimp for 600-1000 that might be better than dropping 1200 on a Crate?

I found a great one from http://www.rebuilt-auto-engines.com...p_vid=5844&sid=1AlF2z0-cF1X51M-48104404852.42

for $1168 327 Corvette engine. 7 YEAR / 70,000 MILE WARRANTY
1968 CHEVY CORVETTE ENGINE -- 68 CHEVROLET CORVETTE ENGINE
Our 1968 CHEVY CORVETTE ENGINE comes with cylinder head(s) attached and valve train installed. Our remanufactured engine long blocks have NEW valves, valve springs, valve keepers, push rods, rocker arms, fulcrums, lifters, camshaft, timing chain (belt), timing gears, valve guides (diamond honed), three angle seats, cam, rod and main bearings, pistons, piston rings, rod bushings (if applicable), gaskets and oil pump. Our 68 CHEVROLET CORVETTE ENGINE long blocks are REMANUFACTURED not just REBUILT!
Im more limited on time than money... but also dont want to waste my motor if its still good. ya know.
 
#6 · (Edited)
If you get an engine from them don't count on it being an engine from a Corvette. I did some poking around and that same stock number "AREGMC-327LB-1" is shows up under Camaro, Corvette, Chevelle, Chevy II, etc... It's just going to be a rebuilt 327 so just be mindful of that.

A friend of mine had a 350 from them in his pickup and it was pretty gutless.

Slightly off topic here but my favorite on that page is near the bottom in the ad for the 5.3L engine and in the same paragraph it says "These 5.3 engines have never been run" then two sentences later it says "...we completely disassembled and inspected every piece and tested them on our run in stand". Hmmm...?
 
#7 · (Edited)
This is what I'd do....
Remove the distributor and use this tool to pre-oil the motor....make sure you have oil in the pan....
http://www.proformtools.com/product...m/OIL_PUMP_PRIMER_WITH_BUSHING/category_id/50

Begin with a freshly-charged battery and known good cables. Disable the ignition coil, wire the primary throttle blades wide open and remove all spark plugs. Do a compression test on all cylinders and find out if you have a motor or not. Before turning the motor over, you may want to squirt a little oil (not too much) into the cylinders through the spark plug holes if the motor has been sitting long enough to be dried out.

A reading of 140 psi across the board will tell you that the motor is in decent shape and will probably not need to be rebuilt. I've run motors down to 110 psi or a little less before, when money was too tight to do a rebuild at the time.

A 3/8" drill motor will work fine for the oiling process. You'll hear it labor down as it begins to pick up oil out of the pan. Let the drill motor run until it gets too hot to hold and you're done with the oiling process.

As you're turning the motor over to check compression, don't let it turn any more than necessary. Each time the piston comes to TDC on the compression stroke, you'll hear a "chuff". Three or four of those will bring the needle on the gauge up to max, pretty much. In other words, don't let the motor chuff the gauge 15 or 20 times because you are wearing on the cam and lifters without them getting any oil at all. They are lubed by oil being slung off the crankshaft and the piston skirts as the motor runs. Without it running, there will be no oil on the cam and lifters, so do your compression tests without any excessive turning of the crank.
 
#8 ·
OK, since the engine is already out, it makes more sense to go through the engine and check everything.

Pull the heads and have them checked at the machine shop (if you can see any major cracks, bent/burned valves, etc - you may want to forget the machine shop and move on); check the valve seats, guides, springs, etc (At this point you need to make sure that you keep track of the lifters - so that if the cam is not replaced they can be reinstalled on the same lobes they came off of). If the heads are servicable (get an estimate of what work they need and the price) we will move on to the block.

Oh and lets take a good look at your harmonic balance, too!

Inspect the block for any obvious cracks or other flaws, like burned pistons. Remove the timing cover, gear/chain set, and camshaft (inspect the cam for excessive wear, ie flat lobes)

Before you remove any bearing caps make sure they are marked (stamped) with cylinder numbers (rods) and position numbers (mains). Remove the rods, be sure to put each cap back on the rod after removing (don't mix the rods/caps).

Now take the block, crank, and rod/piston assemblies to the machine shop and get them checked. If the block and crank are servicable (get an estimate of what work they need and the price)

Now, depending on what your machine shop estimates look like, factor in the cost of a new cam kit (cam with lifters), timing set, gasket set, water pump, and any other bad or broken parts you've stumbled across.

On the cam kit - if your cam looks really good, and you didn't have any broken/bent push rods, bad lifters, bent valves, broken valve springs, etc - you might get away with reinstalling the cam and lifters.

On the heads, new assembled heads can be as affordable as older reworked heads, plus there are probably better heads for your engine. Also for a few extra dollars you can step up to aluminum heads.

There is a lot more to it than this, but this will get you a fairly good assessment to start with.

Worth noting: provide the casting/stamping/date codes for the engine block, heads, and crank (search for threads on here to tell you what and where to look). That way we can figure out what you really have and what your options might be.
I noted that the picture of one of the heads showed a 70 date code (so your engine is probably not all original 327). I'll check your block casting code when I get home tonight.

Good luck
 
#9 ·
I would get a good engine stand, prime the engine, attach a starter to it and do a compression test. If it has good compression there really is no reason to tear it apart.
For the couple hours of time to drop it back in and try to start it, I think it would be worth it. Just do the minimum to safely start it.

That flexplate could have broken for any number of reasons. With how badly it is torn up I would be willing to bet it was installed improperly somehow.
 
#10 ·
Chet, that is a good idea. I didn't go there because I assume he doesn't have the set up to test compression (stand, guage, etc) and because the engine sat for 6 or 7 years.

My information on this block:
Produced mid to late in '67 production year. HP ranged from 210 to 350 (although only the 275hp Camaro application was verified). Not used in truck applications, could have been used in some service applications.
2 bolt configuration, 4.0 bore, small journal crank (3.25 stroke, 2.3 in main, 2.0 in rod journals).

I would need the stamping codes to id the application.

Get the casting codes and date codes on the heads so we can identify them.
 
#13 ·
Well hang on. What are you goals with the vehicle? Do you intend to keep it? That oughta dictate how much you spend. Also, are you going to hot rod the engine? If so how much. My advice would be to take your time and do all or as much of the work yourself. Getting a crate engine is the easy way out and you don't learn anything. Yes it may take a few years, but it is worth it.

Unless you are going to get really radical I think you can save a A LOT of money by NOT plunking down that much money on aluminum heads. Honestly, it is hard to beat the Vortec heads. I looked at rebuilding my old 70's era heads and it would have cost as much or more than just getting some used modern Vortecs. But based on what you have said, I do not think heads are going to be your biggest concern.

The Vortecs do require a Vortec style intake and intake gasket, so there is some extra cost. Also if you get an aftermarket cam with high lift you are going to need to grind down the valve guides to keep the rockers from smashing into them (this is not a big deal to do).

I like all the other suggestions others have said. Your compression test should come first. Personally I would drain the oil before hand. It has been sitting a while and no doubt has gooped up a little, some of the additives have probably separated, and since I am paranoid, I wouldn't that old crap circulating through my engine. Plus if you drain the oil you may find it milky white indicating water got into the engine or a coolant leak. Who knows, maybe it threw a rod and that vibration broke the flexplate and you will see chucks of metal in the oil. Again, something I would want to know before hand. AND no I am not trying to scare you, I am sure everything is fine.

Make sure you follow TechInspectors advice about the pre-oiler...and when you take the distributor off make sure you make the intake/clamp down holder and distributor shaft you get the timing back to where it was.
 
#15 ·
I would do a re-build..Find a reputable shop in your area.Go talk to them first.You may be able to do it in stages as not to brake the bank.I dropped 14K on a Bill Mitchell all aluminum 572 (when they built them in house) warranty expired while still in crate.Decided it best to have shop go through it since it sat so long and we could not believe what we found!! It would have blown for sure! Long story short do it yourself or look over the work being done.
 
#17 ·
I have a 307 that had been sitting for about 6 years.
Took me that long to get the rest of the car re-done.
Put the same ol crappy 307 back in the car----and fired it up.

No smoke--no noise--

Will drive it til it quits----or the oil leak that developed while sitting gets too bad.

Car made it's maiden voyage onto the public streets yesterday morning.

(now I gotta remove the dash and get a new speedometer---makes a terrible noise)
 
#18 ·
my heads

Here are the heads. the shop didnt have the flexplate so will get that in a day or so.

A friend of mine wants to do a blowback test. So waiting for him on that. Maybe this weekend if its not raining we get the fp and try to drop the motor back in.

Some rust on the heads, ill look for a good way to clean that off...


Numbers on the heads.

Passenger side:
D 27 70
GM 14
3927185

Driver side:
D 24 70
GM 12
3927185



Why is one GM 12 and the other 14? Why D 27 and one D 24?
 

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#19 ·
kevinmack said:
Here are the heads. the shop didnt have the flexplate so will get that in a day or so.

A friend of mine wants to do a blowback test. So waiting for him on that. Maybe this weekend if its not raining we get the fp and try to drop the motor back in.

Some rust on the heads, ill look for a good way to clean that off...


Numbers on the heads.

Passenger side:
D 27 70
GM 14
3927185

Driver side:
D 24 70
GM 12
3927185



Why is one GM 12 and the other 14? Why D 27 and one D 24?
Here is info on your casting numbers: http://chevytech.info/3c3927185.html

I believe D is April. 70 is 1970. One was cast on the 24th the other on the 27th. Having a discrepancy of a few days is normal, not a big deal.
 
#20 ·
OK - you've got 70 307 heads (small valve, 69CC) on a 67 327 block. It'll work fine for just cruising around. If everything checks out, I would replace the flex plate and put it in the car. If you have problems after that, you could rebuild it and with a few improvements make a hot little 327 with the right heads and cam.
 
#21 ·
here's my 2 cents and it worth exactly what you paid for it.

If it was me, I'd run it and see!!

Since it's out of the car, I'd do a couple of things before putting it back it.

Compression test as a couple of people have already suggested. If the compression looks good, pull the pan, and check the bearings, pull one main and one rod and see what they look like.

If they look good, replace the front seal and rear main seal , clean the oil pump screen, make sure the timing chain looks OK and then stick the pan back on with new gaskets.

Put it back in the car, and drive it!!

Bob
 
#22 ·
starnest said:
OK - you've got 70 307 heads (small valve, 69CC) on a 67 327 block. It'll work fine for just cruising around. If everything checks out, I would replace the flex plate and put it in the car. If you have problems after that, you could rebuild it and with a few improvements make a hot little 327 with the right heads and cam.

My Vote is for this also!!

While the engine is out check all gaskets and fix all the oil leaks, and maybe replace the freeze plugs in back of the flex plate "If they show signs of rust"

Replace the flex plate front balancer,.................... and maybe look at replacing the transmission with a 700R4 and drive the car like you stole it. until there is a major breakdown. then you can rebuild or replace as the dollars dictate.
What is the condition of the rest of the car?
 
#23 ·
A good USED running 350 can be had for $500 or less, a 305 can be had for $300 or less. Either of these will be a fine replacement. There is no headaches of chasing down problems, its the cheapest option, and you will likely have MORE power. When buying a used one go with one that is fuel injected and is clean under the valve cover, best case scenario one that you can hear run (but that isn't always possible).

I would go the 350 route as it'll have more power and if you should ever sell the car is worth more than a 305. If you still want to add a little something extra I would get a chrome dress up kit, a clean aluminum intake, headers and an RV cam. That's what you'll see a lot of at car shows as its cheap and effective.
 
#24 ·
starnest said:
I'm guessing it is a balance problem. The crank (w/rods/pistons) and flexplate weren't balanced together. - AND/OR - The harmonic balancer is bad (or the wrong one).

The flex plate was tightened down ...off center. not completely flat[fitted]on the crank. before the tightening down sequence began.therefore it just broke out at the shown point hth No other reason to me.
 
#25 ·
Yes, just check it out and run it. If it was running 5-6 years ago there is no reason it shouldn't run now. The rings could be stuck and give variable compression readings, but it will free up after a couple hundred miles of running. Make sure you drain the gas tank then pull and CLEAN it. Old gas leaves a residue which new gas (especially with ethanol in it) dissolves. The residue gets in the engine and gums up carbs/injectors and even valves. I've had it get into valve guides and cause the valves to stick open and bend pushrods. I've brought many old engines back to life after sitting for years -- you should have no real problems. Pull the fuel line and stick it in a gallon anti-freeze jug (or similar) with fuel in it for temporary running -- until you get the tank pulled and cleaned. Can't go far, but can run it enough to see what condition it's in and run around the block a few times.

The flexplate isn't a big mystery. I've ripped the center out of one on a little 195.6 Rambler six cylinder. Flexplates are a hardened steel, and get brittle with use and age. Cracks usually develop around the bolt holes first, either at the crank (most common, that's where most of the stress is) or where the converter bolts on. The bolts may have not been tightened properly causing excess stress, could have just been age, or the metal may not have been properly hardened.

Engine balance wouldn't affect the flexplate -- that would affect the crank bearings. A bad torque converter can put excessive stress on the flexplate though. A bad bearing in the converter can throw the converter out of balance enough to stress the flexplate, but the harmonic balancer or crank balance shouldn't.
 
#26 ·
Just went through the same thing

I shelled the 350 in my '37 Chevy Coupe about 4 weeks ago. The oil pump failed and the distibutor gear failed, don't know why, never seen it happen before. Anyhoo, I had a similar delemma. Rebuild or buy a crate 383 SBC. Called a buddy and he recommended a shop here in Jacksonville, FL. Called and they told me that they charged $70 to tear down my motor and tell me what it needed. I was happy to oblige as I could do it myself but am way too time short to do so. PLUS, when I bought the car, I was told the car had a 383 and I wanted to know whether it truly was. SUPRISE!!! I have a two bolt main 350. Good news was that it did have some good parts. Forged TRW pistons, Trick Flow twisted wedge heads(67cc) and decent rods. It had a Comp Magnum 292 H cam which was also damaged so I simply bought a new 292 Magnum(LOVE the sound and it works!) The motor was thouroughly cleaned, crank reground, new bearings and reassembled . They checked my heads and they were fine. Bill was $1,150 for parts and labor(I supplied the cam). I added a new Hurricane intake and should end up with a 420 HP 350. So for me, I am happy and I saved about $1800. It is not a four bolt, but it should hold up fine for occasional strip and weekend cruises. Putting it in this week.
 
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