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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-09-2012 07:15 PM
spencely hey guy I think we are getting on he same wavelength...you are making the same deductions I am...I am pretty sure that this car is almost all stock from the day it was built only has 51,000 miles....the distributor was like rusted in place when i tried to bump up the timing last night,,,and what a difference that made. i just cranked it up with no light and waited to hear for any rattling which there is none...I haven't driven it far but it really woke that 305 up. maybe it will overheat,,we'll see. What a b****h it was to get to that dist clamp bolt, so much crap on that engine there isn't room to slip in a piece of paper. I removed and bent some stuff...stupid designers. Or maybe they wanted that way to prevent tampering...like the rolls royces of some years that locked their hoods shut because they didn't want the owners fooling around under there. i think you are probably;y correct about that 400 switch but like you i'm thinking I should have almost everything there already. I found some stuff that maybe be the vacuum switch on the manifold and there is a couple switches activated on the brake pedal arm... I doubt there is room for any more there. Anywho...i disconnected the trans form any wiring and could not tell the difference at all. No tach to tell rpms...Maybe the thing never worked to begin with. I will attempt to get it to operate eventually but I have a warm fuzzy feeling now that I know that it will still work almost the same without it. Time will tell...I hooked it back up for now...my driving is stop and go with speeds up to 60 or so on pretty much flat roads, I will try to be more sensitive to the effect and if it is engaging...I also have a old 92 lincoln continental winter bomb that has an overdrive and I can definitely tell when that one is operating..sometimes right around 42mph it bogs it right out if you try to drive that speed with it in overdrive. I think my system is all there and is complete...working?? I don't' know...but it apparently has more to it than just the three switches listed in that thread...the distributor has some relationship as does the carb itself so there will obviously be more sorting out of the items later.

I consulted one of my many motor manuals and found some reference but it really doesn't show the same setup at all..once I start stripping out all the old systems I will be able to better identify what goes to what. I am making a note of that part and will have it on hand when the time comes. Thanks.
04-09-2012 09:52 AM
66GMC I had to chuckle at myself just a little, when I dicovered the exact same (word for word) post from Houston54 right here on hotrodders.com.

Now I might be wrong ... but the TH350C has to be using some sort of electric solenoid valve to control the TC lockup, just like the overdrive units. Houston54's post seems to confirm this, and hints that a solenoid out of a 200-4R may even work instead.

Quote:
The solenoid switch the rebuilder put in my trans only has one pole on it as the original is difficult to impossible to find. The replacement switch is from a later model GM lockup trans. It may be the 200R4 switch but not sure. If I get by the rebuilders shop again I will ask.
But "difficult to impossible to find?"

NAPA Echlin # TCS536
is what is listed for an 83 El Camino "with 3 speed A/T"

Something else that seems to be confusing me just a little is if that transmission of yours is original to the vehicle ... wouldn't the converter lockup system already be there?

Perhaps somebody simply removed or disconnected that vacuum switch?

To my understanding, there are two (or more) things that will disengage the lock-up converter.
1.) The brake switch ... for obvious reasons.
2.) The vacuum switch. This is for when you are pulling up a hill for example. The reduced manifold vacuum "tells" the transmission that the engine is working hard, and could use that little extra RPM before having to force a downshift to 2nd gear. I'm sure it's also there to protect the converter lockup clutch.

My ex-son-in-law had an 88 Chevy C1500 with a 350 / 700R4 pulling a U-Haul trailer through the Rocky Mountains ... and the lockup function was pretty obvious to me. The RPM would pick up just a few hundred RPM going up a gentle slope, then settle back down on the flat. When a steeper, or longer slope was encountered ... you would note the lockup disengaging first ... followed by a downshift (or downshifts) later.

In other words ... if you're cruising at 1800 RPM in OD, you will see / hear / feel the RPM's pick up to about 2100 when the converter un-locks. Whereas an actual downshift will take the tach into the 3000 + range. (Numbers are approximated)
04-08-2012 12:13 PM
spencely 66gmc...Amen...I did see that thread late last night with the parts listed and finally felt some relief. Now I'm trying to figure out what my car already has as far as those parts go....he was retrofitting the trans to his old 30's vintage truck while I am just trying to use my original trans here. This morning I replaced the second oil sending unit ,,this one down by the filter and now have normal pressure readings at the gage...the pegged gage was giving me some worries. High oil pressure, I am told, usually is caused by spun bearings. At any rate, I unhooked the connections to the trans and personally could not tell any difference in a test drive. Now I;m wondering if it ever worked. Any way to tell that you know of? So it appears as tho the engine swap with the edelbrock carb can be done and the act of getting the lockup to work can be done at my leisure. I am trying to trace the parts on my car already but it is difficult not knowing what all the things are under there....I do see a vacuum switch of types with some wiring to it...i think it might be it...it's mounted on the intake to the right rear of the engine. Now to trace the wiring and lines. Three wires on the trans but engine compt so crowded with hoses and crap..it is hard to track them. It's going to be so much cleaner in there without the air pump and other non-essential items. I can see that I will have to fabricate some standoffs to use with the headers to allow the AC to be retained. In the course of all this investigation I have uncovered many issues, one being the valve covers leaking....I thought that I had snugged them up before but it must have been some other car because these felt like finger tight. Maybe the oil will stop running down he sides of the engine now...I didn't realize how bad it was till I got under there again. It didn't seem to dripping that much but the engine and trans is a mess with it. The other link was for the overdrive trans which is not applicable to the 350..no internal wiring or switches.

Thanks again for the input. It looks as though I have it just about licked.
04-08-2012 09:44 AM
66GMC
Quote:
we're supposed to be talking car talk here
Agreed.

BTW ... I'm *reasonably sure* that the vacuum switch that I posted earlier would also work for a TH350C application. You may have to either make your own wiring harness of modify one of the Painless ones.

This theory *may* be reinforced here.
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=335802

Scroll down to the last post in that thread for another (related) link.
http://www.73-87.com/7387garage/drivetrain/lockup.htm
04-08-2012 09:35 AM
spencely ok thats enough of that,,,this is not a group therapy session,,,we're supposed to be talking car talk here. napa burnt me...i wrote them off. lets just accept that and move on.
04-08-2012 09:21 AM
66GMC
Quote:
I take some offense to your insinuation that I don't' know what I am doing.
Where the "H-E-double hockey-sticks" did I say THAT?

Quote:
It appears as though you are saying it doesn't matter if an electrical part is defective, once you buy it the deal is closed.
Perhaps English is not your first language?

Quote:
Restocking? Resaleable?? I hope not, defects are defects...once discovered it should be no contest.
I'm pretty sure that you're just TRYING to be argumentative ... but you do realize that there is a difference between returnin a *NEW* part versus returning a *DEFECTIVE* part ... don't you?
04-08-2012 08:58 AM
spencely Hey guys, I guess I have thrown a pall over all of napa over that incident. I have dealt with other napa's and with electrical parts for a golf cart when I was camping up north, solenoids to be specific and they did allow me to test and return to get the right part. The points thing happened locally and I was a regular up to that point, with my 100$ bombs back in those days ... beleive me,,,I was in their store plenty. I seriously doubt that your eyes would have told you that these points were defective in their manufacture and I didn't just fall off the turnip truck putting points in a car either. One of the touchiest cars, point wise, I ever owned was 64 belvedere ex-interceptor car with a 383 4 sp and dual points....they had to be on the money or it just didn't' run right,,,a bit of a pain but when she was on, there wasn't many that could compete. And that was several years before I had this 71 318 cuda to replace the points in....like I said, I bought another set someplace else and had no issues so I take some offense to your insinuation that I don't' know what I am doing. Restocking? Resaleable?? I hope not, defects are defects...once discovered it should be no contest. Not that I am perfect...I am human and I make mistakes...I am also man enough to own up to them too. It appears as though you are saying it doesn't matter if an electrical part is defective, once you buy it the deal is closed. I had to buy some expensive starter motors in the past few years and can tell you that I would never accept a bad motor that cost me 150$, I use the best defense I can by charging expensive parts. Then if there's a problem I have the charge card to back me up in case I run into problems and better yet...my wife pays those bills with money I don't have to come up with. I never asked my local private parts store or advanced auto what their return policy was on such items but assumed that if I had a problem they would take care of me. I hope I never have to find out. There's nothing worse than disassembling your car to do a job and having the defective parts and having to put it all back together again and trying to do it all again later with hopefully good parts. Advance has a habit of giving the wrong parts it seems sometime but their return policy works for me. You have a better policy than my local napa dealer does or did..like I say //I don't go there except as a last resort. Burn me once, shame on you...burn me twice, shame on me. It's been like 30 years now and they have missed my business since then for the most part. I also work on other peoples cars...usually fixing things instead of just replacing,,,very few fix anymore,,,just throw new parts at it until the problem is solved. I'm sure you have the trust of your regular customers and wish you well in the future, my trust got broke and in the words of the famous designer, Mr Schmidt..when a rattlesnake bites me I don't pat him on the back. And remember respect is a two way street. I'm not a rocket scientist but more of an elephant I guess...I don't forget things easily.
04-08-2012 08:23 AM
66GMC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo56
Not trying to make this all about NAPA and returns but you often get better treatment if you are a regular customer.

I can return almost anything at the two stores I buy from...but O'Reilly's? Not a chance. Since they are the highest priced in town they seldom see me.

Most stores around here also do not take back any electrical returns.. starters, alternators, ignition, etc. You own it once you bought it. But, again, I can get away with a better deal as can most shops and repair guys.

Good luck on your swap...
Good point in regards to regular or at least "repeat" customers.

Another little secret ...
If I get some guy that comes in furious and throwing a fit ... bad-mouthing us to everyone in line and promising to never darken my door again ...
I'll take him at his word.

A promise is a promise, after all.

I really do believe in being given the chance to work it out reasonably and fairly.

I feel the same about a mechanical repair complaint...
Take it back to the shop that did the repair, and give them the chance to "make it right". Don't go back waving a bill from some other garage and expect reimbursement, because 9 times out of 10, you won't be getting it. Right?

Hmmm ... in regards to returns of starters and especially alternators.
That's getting to be a tough one.

Years ago an alternator was a $25 to $50 unit ... and had an external regulator. If it passed the "sniff test" and there were no signs of arcing or blueing on the terminals ... I'd probably take it back. Back in those days, we also used to have an electrical test bench ... where a 2-minute test could verify that it was operating normally.

Nowadays ... alternators are getting to be much more expensive and complex. I'd have to know and trust you before I'd consider taking it back.
A $10,000.00 / month account? Yes, no question.
04-08-2012 07:58 AM
66GMC
Quote:
Originally Posted by spencely
ha....and so how would you know the points were defective unless you tried to install them and they wouldn't open? Is that a catch 22? You got some points checker thingie that can verify them before you try to put them in? That would be bogus reasoning in my book. Nothing solid state about a set of strictly mechanical points. I guess I never had trouble with such a simple part from anywhere else and had to try to return the junk. I got another set from a reputable parts house and had no issues. The defect was strictly mechanical in nature. There was no arcing as they never opened at all...the cam follower wouldn't make contact with the cam at all. I guess you must be a napa guy or something, sorry if it hit a nerve with you...it hit mine a long time ago.
Yes, I am a "NAPA guy".
I suggest that you might want to re-read what I posted.
I said that I *would* take them (the points) back.

The "points checker thingie" is my eyes (and fingers)...
I also said that I *don't* hassle my customers one the return of "electrical" parts. (i.e. points, switches, signal flashers, trouble lights, etc)
Firstly ... because I don't believe that it's worth a potential confrontation over a lousy $10.00 part. Secondly, I try to put myself in the customers shoes. Most of us DIY-ers are not professional technicians and tend to make some poor diagnostic decisions from time to time ... I *get* that.

I have a few very simple, common-sense rules (IMO) when it comes to returns.

1.) If our store sold it to you, and there is no doubt in my staff's mind that it's in resalable condition ... we'll take it back.
2.) If it came from our stock ... there will be no re-stocking charge.
3.) Non-stocked items ... You will pay what I pay in regards to re-stocking and freight charges (in both directions), and will be subject to any of the supplier's rules. If they say it's non-returnable ...

IMO ... we have a very FAIR return policy. You may want to reconsider painting EVERY NAPA store with the same opinion brush. I'm just sayin' ...

I'll also say this again.
Quote:
Respect is a 2-way street.
Yesterday 05:33 PM
04-08-2012 07:38 AM
Mojo56 Not trying to make this all about NAPA and returns but you often get better treatment if you are a regular customer.

I can return almost anything at the two stores I buy from...but O'Reilly's? Not a chance. Since they are the highest priced in town they seldom see me.

Most stores around here also do not take back any electrical returns.. starters, alternators, ignition, etc. You own it once you bought it. But, again, I can get away with a better deal as can most shops and repair guys.

Good luck on your swap...
04-07-2012 06:36 PM
spencely ha....and so how would you know the points were defective unless you tried to install them and they wouldn't open? Is that a catch 22? You got some points checker thingie that can verify them before you try to put them in? That would be bogus reasoning in my book. Nothing solid state about a set of strictly mechanical points. I guess I never had trouble with such a simple part from anywhere else and had to try to return the junk. I got another set from a reputable parts house and had no issues. The defect was strictly mechanical in nature. There was no arcing as they never opened at all...the cam follower wouldn't make contact with the cam at all. I guess you must be a napa guy or something, sorry if it hit a nerve with you...it hit mine a long time ago.
04-07-2012 05:48 PM
66GMC
Quote:
Originally Posted by spencely
...

66GMC...thanks for the sources....I Presume those are for the 700/200r4 swaps? I'll be sticking to the th350c I think. I'll give napa a call to see if they have something for the lockup converter for me. I'm a little wary of any napa electrical stuff though,,,they do not allow returns of any electrical items.. the last I knew.. so if there's something wrong with it its your tough luck. I learned the hard way with a defective set of points many years ago and never go to them since, except as a last resort. Not that a set of points was breaking the bank...it's just the principal. I don't like to do business with people that don't stand behind what they sell.
Hmmm, yeah ... some stores get pretty anal when it comes to the "No return on electrical parts" thing.

It really should read "No return on ELECTRONIC (solid state) parts".
Put it this way ... I wouldn't hassle you on a set of $10.00 points. It's pretty easy to visually check them. If you had installed them, there would be a mark from tightening the screw ... and/or if they were overheated and blue, they'd be your little souvenir, etc.

I had a guy bring back a $150.00 VW ignition coil a couple of months ago ... claiming that he hadn't installed it. It passed the "stink" test, but it had been marked by the coil wire clip. When I 'called' him on that he sheepishly admitted to trying it ... and that it didn't make any difference.

I decided to send it back to NAPA on a "goodwill" claim, and told him that I'd refund his money as long as NAPA deemed it to be in "re-saleable condition". They did, and I did.

Moral of the story? Tell the truth to begin with, and perhaps the counter guy will work WITH you. Respect is a 2-way street.
04-07-2012 05:33 PM
spencely hey, Valkyrie5.7, thanks for the reply. The engine came with a new hei distributor that I will use...that engine assembly was originally intended for 78 malibu project that never made it according to the seller. The headers should fit the elco too as I did a search and found the same application for both. Good idea on the search..I will give it shot. I did see some stuff for doing the 400r swap but when I found I had a 6 inch tailshaft and driveshaft mods were required, I decided to abandon that thought. I get so caught up in the search that I find it impossible to find what I really want sometimes and before I know it, it's time to go too bed. I am a cad designer and spend enough time on the computer all day and have little taste for it at home...unless I am having success on one of my searches,,, then I am gung ho. I only accidentally ran across this site the other day, and I am glad I did. I figured I might not get any response but you and others are definitely being helpful. I can relate to the repeating the same stuff over and over again. I have seen a million articles on doing swaps like these but never took the time to read then through as they weren't pertinent to anything I was doing,,,things have changed and I still have all those old mags... I need a clerk to find the articles for me now. If I wait a while the stories may come back around. I;m finding that the 83 camino is an outdated auto that not many carry parts for...I consider it to be a late model...guess I'm showing my age.

66GMC...thanks for the sources....I Presume those are for the 700/200r4 swaps? I'll be sticking to the th350c I think. I'll give napa a call to see if they have something for the lockup converter for me. I'm a little wary of any napa electrical stuff though,,,they do not allow returns of any electrical items.. the last I knew.. so if there's something wrong with it its your tough luck. I learned the hard way with a defective set of points many years ago and never go to them since, except as a last resort. Not that a set of points was breaking the bank...it's just the principal. I don't like to do business with people that don't stand behind what they sell.
04-07-2012 04:23 PM
66GMC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie5.7
FWIW, Don't use the distributor from the 305 in the 350. You can wire up a lock up converter switch via several means and a few companies sell a kit for it so you can retain the converter lock up on your th350c. Pretty common stuff, just do a little searching.

Start by searching something like "lock up converter switch th350c" in our search bar or Google. You'll find a ton of info and it keeps our regulars from having to feel like broken records.

As far as swapping in 700R4, the extra gear is nice, but without the right combo you can render your first gear useless. The 2004R has a way better gear spread for a performance car and also comes with overdrive.

NAPA Echlin TCL100 $74.09 (joe retail)

or if you prefer it in kit form ... ($240.00 -ish)


Painless #60109 for 700R4 / #60100 for 200-4R
04-07-2012 03:51 PM
Valkyrie5.7 FWIW, Don't use the distributor from the 305 in the 350. You can wire up a lock up converter switch via several means and a few companies sell a kit for it so you can retain the converter lock up on your th350c. Pretty common stuff, just do a little searching.

Start by searching something like "lock up converter switch th350c" in our search bar or Google. You'll find a ton of info and it keeps our regulars from having to feel like broken records.

As far as swapping in 700R4, the extra gear is nice, but without the right combo you can render your first gear useless. The 2004R has a way better gear spread for a performance car and also comes with overdrive.
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