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the best place to put quarter skin seam

25K views 93 replies 12 participants last post by  123pugsy 
#1 ·
Hey all you radical dudes.

First things first. I've done a lot of reading, and have searched through the old threads on this board for quarter skins. I don't want to be That Guy that asks the same redundant question again. So if you are already aware of a good thread that answers this question, don't feel like you have to waste your time answering it yet again, just link me.

Now on to the business...

I have some aweful damage concealed with 1/2" of filler on the pass. side quarter. It's not repairable and the panel is so friendly you could probably get sex from it if you stood close enough (perhaps I should start standing closer).

I had a nightmare in replacing the full quarter on the driver's...so much that I gave up and took it in. Also replaced the tail light panel.

I want to try a skin on the pass side. I have a nice MIG that I'm decent with, not a pro, but not a beginner. I also will butt weld the panel in, not over lap. I also have an ever growing collection of body tools and some formal education on body work from the local tech school because I wanted to help my hobby.

I've read on Mustang Monthly that they put the seam on the top surface ( that is, the area between the body line and the trunk lid) rather than on the side of the car. It seems this would be much easier to conceal too, than a seam on the side of the car.

What have your experiences been? Thanks in advance. You guys are a cool bunch of dudes!
 
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#52 ·
John long said:
I do disagree with Brian only about the gap. I personally like a little gap. maybe a 1/16 of an inch. I can bridge the gap with a much smaller, cooler weld and better control the heat. This comes from my personal style and 25 years of becoming set in my ways. That does not mean I don' think others methods will work.

John L
About the gap (I'm sure Brian probably doesn't realize this) I had use butt welding clamps to provide my gap so there was about a 1/16" space (or whatever is considered ideal). HOWEVER, where those huge swells are in the panel, for whatever reason the old metal and the new metal were actually touching; there wasn't much of a gap at all. I went ahead and scorched it anyways. That might change Brian's mind after he knows that.
 
#53 ·
MARTINSR said:
I am not kidding, that seam would take me all day long to weld. I would literally take all day long, that is how much time I leave between welds on something like that.


Brian
It literally took me about a week to complete all those welds. I'd only a add a few a day, spaced across the entire panel. Welds were let to cool naturally and cool to the touch until I made a new weld adjacent to a previous weld. After I made a run I'd set the gun down and go back 5 minutes later or so. I was actually working on something else while doing these welds; I'd just periodically come back and put some new welds on then get back to whatever I was doing. This is why I am so perplexed. I thought I was doing this by the book.
 
#54 ·
Lizer said:
I think you are right about too much heat. I didn't have the heat settings up any higher on my welder than I ever do, but I remember driving home those spot welds really good to make sure I had good penetration. I did sit there with the trigger pulled a little longer than I usually do, which is prob why I don't have this problem on my other welds.
And this is what I was talking about. This is me, and what I have learned to do, I don't know if it goes against the norm and what other opinions are, I just know I have made it work pretty good for me.

The fact is, you WANT the weld hot. Set up a little test, turn that welder WIDE OPEN, as hot as it will go. I have a 205 amp 220 volt welder and I can do this, this is where I weld, HOT. I am not saying this quarter would be welded like this, I would have the "heat" (the voltage) turned down to just above the middle of the settings like 6.5 (it goes 1-10) with the wire speed (the amperage) set about the same. This is much higher than the recommendations on the welder. But I am not laying a "bead", that would be different. Welding a bead, you need lower heat because you would blow a hole with all that heat. But for my little bzzzzz quarter inch welds, it is perfect.

But back to what I started to say, turn that welder up all the way and weld a test panel seam. With a little practice you will be able to lay a little quarter inch bead without blowing a hole. With it set this hot, and welding a very short little weld FAST, you are creating a much smaller HAZ. This is at least how I have found to work with the MIG.

I am not kidding, with this method I can touch the metal after welding very close to the weld and there is very little heat. Letting this little heat cool down completely before moving to the next weld, you keep the heat down and less warpage.

Again, I can't stress enough, this is "bodyman" stuff, not "Tin man" stuff so we are talking on two different plains, Pugsy and I.

What he is saying is how I WANT to learn to do things, that is the right way, that is the way of the metal masters. He is talking the BEST way. I am talking the "bestest" way in my opinion and with my limited skills.

Brian
 
#55 ·
MARTINSR said:
I do know that when welding something like that there really is no reason for that much warpage, if you weld it like I do with little, hot spot welds so it welds FAST there is very little heat going out to a large HAZ.

I am NOT saying that Pugsy is wrong (that would be pretty damn stupid of me) being he is one of those guys I admire and is working with the metal like a master of days gone by,a "tin man" if you will.

What I do is NOT that kinda work, but when using a MIG welder with my limited skills in metal shaping, welding as I do with small hot welds and skipping around allowing it to cool COMPLETELY before welding again you get a lot less warpage. I am not kidding, that seam would take me all day long to weld. I would literally take all day long, that is how much time I leave between welds on something like that.

It may not be the BEST way, but I like to call something like that the "Bestest" way. :mwink:

The "Tin man" will weld it, then plannish it into the shape he wants. THAT is the right way to do it, I am talking more a middle of the road "bestest" way to do it. :) Just tossing it out there at this point for discussion and Pugsy, I do want to hear what you think about this method.

Brian

The least amount of heat with proper penetration is always the best way.
The less heat, less shrinkage. Ask your wife, she will agree, shrinkage is bad.

On my hood panel, the intent was to show that I welded it wrong on purpose. I wanted to learn more about stretching and shrinking and getting it back into shape. I'm a sucker for punishment but would not attempt this where its difficult to reach the back.

I wouldn't cut and reweld. If the weld is solid, I would think hard about how to get in there. If I had to, I would weld a long tube to my dolly to get it just right. I understand there are a variety of spoons available for such a purpose as well.
 
#56 ·
Agree Brian. The problem Josh has is there is no way for him to get behind the panel to properly planish it and his welds were really hot. Unlike the panel Pugsy is demonstrating where he has access to properly metal work the panel. You are correct also about spot welds with as little heat as possible.

Forgive me for jumping in here. Josh is already getting good advise from knowledgeable people. Mostly I felt I owed him an apology which he graciously accepted.

John L
 
#58 ·
Pugsy, read the post I made explaining my position on the hot welds that I do. Honestly, I have had great success with this. Because I don't have to hold it there for a longer time to GET penetration with a lower heat it creates LESS heat in the area. A short hot weld then let it cool. When I start hitting other welds as the welds get closer and closer together and overlap the weld is hot enough to penetrate the next weld which of course is thicker than the surrounding sheetmetal. It is thus, "less" heat because the weld is made so much faster.

Again, I understand what you are saying but this really seems to work.

Brian
 
#57 ·
Forgot to mention, just the area in the HAZ has been affected. Do not touch the metal beyond an inch to inch and a half either side of the weld. I know it is frustrating but if you want to do it right, its got to be done. You can also work it the best you can get it and allow for filler. I see absolutely nothing wrong with a skim coat of filler. I'll be using it on my project for sure.
 
#59 ·
MARTINSR said:
Pugsy, read the post I made explaining my position on the hot welds that I do. Honestly, I have had great success with this. Because I don't have to hold it there for a longer time to GET penetration with a lower heat it creates LESS heat in the area. A short hot weld then let it cool. When I start hitting other welds as the welds get closer and closer together and overlap the weld is hot enough to penetrate the next weld which of course is thicker than the surrounding sheetmetal. It is thus, "less" heat because the weld is made so much faster.

Again, I understand what you are saying but this really seems to work.

Brian
I never disagreed with you. A fast hot tack is the same as a drawn out weld at a cooler setting.
 
#60 ·
Ok, you know I started doing that fast hot weld years ago and never looked back. I did it because I was warping things, maybe if I had just learned the right way it would have been better. :rolleyes:

Thanks. :thumbup:

Brian
 
#62 ·
John long said:
I do disagree with Brian only about the gap. I personally like a little gap. maybe a 1/16 of an inch. I can bridge the gap with a much smaller, cooler weld and better control the heat. This comes from my personal style and 25 years of becoming set in my ways. That does not mean I don' think others methods will work.

John L
I'm thinking if you are planishing it the gap doesn't matter? Pugsy? :D

But if you are welding it "bodyman style" like I am talking it will shrink more. Maybe that is the difference?

Brian
 
#63 ·
John long said:
Brian, when I made my post I was not disagreeing either. I meant low heat into the panel, not a low heat weld. Short and fast is correct and that takes enough heat for fast penetration. Sorry if I did not make my self clear.

John L
No problem John, don't ever worry about that, we are tossing stuff out there. If there aren't different ideas being tossed into the mix how in the hell can we learn?

If I wanted to get ONE point of view, I'd read a book. We are here to DISUSS things and see many different ways to get the job done. :thumbup:

And to learn there are better ways than we are doing it too. I personally WANT to be shown better ways that the way I do things, if it makes sense it makes sense, you can't disagree when it makes sense. :drunk:

Brian
 
#64 ·
MARTINSR said:
I'm thinking if you are planishing it the gap doesn't matter? Pugsy? :D

But if you are welding it "bodyman style" like I am talking it will shrink more. Maybe that is the difference?

Brian

I don't MIG so I have no comment on the gap.

When TIG welding a gap more filler is needed and therefore more total heat involved.
 
#65 ·
Thanks Brian, this would make a good new thread. "how do you like to join your panels".

Let me try to explain why I personally like the gap.

First, if you don't have a gap the panels will overlap with even the least amount of shrinkage. You can planish the spot weld and use the gap as a guide.

Secondly, it requires less welding heat to bridge that gap and still get off quickly making it easier for me to control the heat into the panel.

Thirdly, If you have the entire panel joined by nothing but small spot welds and can keep it planished as you go those last spot welds will not hurt you as much. The most shrinkage, as you know, always comes at the end.

When I chopped my first car I did it all with an acetylene torch and hammer welded it. it was a 49 merc. Lots of welds. Lots of hammer and dolly. The MIG welder is the quickest and easiest way to weld but the main draw back, as you know, is the welds are very hard and difficult to planish. No red hot weld waiting to be worked. That makes controlling the shrinkage throughout the process even more critical.

John L
 
#66 ·
Ahhhh, you are working each weld as you go. The shrinkage is easier to control and the gap may not matter, you are overcoming the shrinkage with your planishing. I am talking letting it cool, again, with a bodyman style I have been working on late models for years and in those cases there is VERY often no access to the back side on these butt welds, so the closer the gap the better.

I have to tell you, I too did a lot of work with the torch before I got my MIG. My first chop top of course was all torch. And I plan on going back to it when I finish up my truck (same truck, different cab) to my torch just for old times sake. I have a "jewelers torch" attachment that is pretty neat, I call it a "Poormans TIG". :D I have only used it a few times and using .023 MIG wire as filler rod you could lay a tiny little bead with a pretty small HAZ.

Brian
 
#67 ·
John long said:
Agree Brian. The problem Josh has is there is no way for him to get behind the panel to properly planish it and his welds were really hot. Unlike the panel Pugsy is demonstrating where he has access to properly metal work the panel. You are correct also about spot welds with as little heat as possible.

Forgive me for jumping in here. Josh is already getting good advise from knowledgeable people. Mostly I felt I owed him an apology which he graciously accepted.

John L
I reject the apology; it was unnecessary :)
 
#68 ·
While you guys were debating away in here, I stepped out to work this weld, then stopped as a few questions arose.

First off, I CAN get access to the back of the entire weld. It is not fun, it is not easy, it is hard on the back, legs, forearms, any body part you name it. Mix t this with having to push the dolly against the back of the weld, then strike it from the front with a hammer...literally 30 seconds of doing that and I'm wiped.

I took a paint stick so I can lay it along the weld and see every low spot. I'd like to know how you guys are planishing your welds. I have a slapper (which I don't know what I'd do without), and a hammer and dolly set.

1. Do I stretch the LOW spots so those come up, relax the metal and allow the high spots to ease back down?

2. Do I have to give the high spots some gentle persuasion with the slapper to ease them back down?

I've found the best dolly is if I stick the slapper in the back and go at the front with a hammer to do the actual stretching. When I think I'm getting close, I move a dolly to the back and move to the slapper on the outside to try to 'shape' the metal more.

3. How HARD should I be hitting? Right now I'm giving gentle blows, harder than a tap but lighter than a smack. I'm really worried that if I'm doing a smack and I miss my target I'm screwed.

I'm debating if I should post a video so you guys can watch my technique.
 
#69 ·
That's cool. I keep threatening to go back to the torch for a project but probably never will. Too spoiled by now.

I do work my spot welds as I go but there really is no advantage. I just do it to keep busy while the panel cools. A MIG weld is cold by the time you can pick up your hammer and dolly, unlike a gas weld. I noticed Pugsy said he always TIQ welded. I never learned how but have played with a friend's. It is similar to gas welding to the extent you are using the arc to generate a puddle and adding filler to the puddle. Like gas welding you can watch the puddle follow the heat. As I understand it, one of the advantages to a TIG weld is it is softer and easier to work (planish).

Being the impatient kind of guy am, I sometimes will use shop air to cool the panel, holding the air hose 2 or 3 feet from the panel. Once the panel is cool there is no more change that is going to occur so I can move on. Don't miss understand though. It would take me also an entire day to weld that quarter. There is no quick way.

I wonder if in a few years we will be flanging and gluing them. The problem would be hiding the repair. Now there is a subject you should be an expert on. :)

John L
 
#71 ·
I start "off dolly" with the dolly behind the low spot and hitting the high spot near it to level them out. But stretching the low spot up by thinning it is the next step.

As far as tools, I have a number of Martin "dollies" like the MT-1052 and MT-1024 then another one like the MT-1052 but with a larger square head on it.

Click here

Brian
 
#72 ·
Wow you have your own line of body tools? If you were in showbiz that'd be cologne that we'd be looking at.

The 1024 is exactly what my slapper is. I had borrowed one like the 1052 from a body shop who gave me a lot of help when I lived in Iowa but unfortunately I lost those contacts. That dolly with the handle was difficult to use because it was so heavy to extend and hold for this purpose.
 
#76 ·
John long said:
LOL.....There you go, trying to embarrass me. The brand name on my tools is spelled Taiwan. You, of course, are a professional and your tools are an investment in your trade. I just hate being a poor boy. :mad:

Actually God has blessed me even if I'm not rich.

John L
I get the best I can possibly afford, you need less skill with better tools. :D

Brian
 
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