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Topic Review (Newest First)
05-14-2012 11:18 AM
cobalt327 I do tend to listen to what the factory says in their manuals. I mean the factory manuals. If Olds or whoever says to do it that way, I'd give it some thought at the very least. However, here I once used that exact same 'argument', i.e. "that's what the factory manual says" and was told "you cannot rely on what's in a factory manual to always be right". So d if you do, d if you don't.

In any event, I didn't take anyone's opinions as a slight to me. The options are laid out nicely, now it's up to the installer as to how to proceed.

Moving on...
05-14-2012 09:58 AM
joe_padavano I think we need to widen this discussion to include whether or not the toilet paper should come off the top of the roll or the bottom...

Seriously people, it DOES NOT MATTER. Installation of a timing set isn't infinitely variable. The chain only goes on the gear teeth in discrete positions. Doesn't matter if the dots are at 6:12 or at 12:12; I've never had a problem telling if the gears were lined up or one tooth off. We've already spent way more time arguing about it than it takes to actually do it.
05-14-2012 07:17 AM
Mr. P-Body I'm not "picking a fight" with ANYONE, "Daddy"... and I'm hardly a "noob". I am a 35-year ASE Master engine builder. The posts I make, when qualified as an "opinion" are just that. If not qualified as such, you can "bet" on it. The factory service manuals for most engines indicate 12/12, including Oldsmobile.

It has been my experience, it's EASIER to "get it wrong" when the dots are closer together than when separated. "Angle of deflection" comes into "play".

As stated earlier, the "right" way to do it is to "degree" the cam. NOT an opinion.

I have no doubt cobalt327 knows what he's talking about. It is not my intent to "show him up" or claim him "wrong". It IS my intent, to explain how things are done in the "engine building world". Many, many procedures we use are either ommitted or done in the wrong "order", when reading many posts. This is a particular area of expertise, outside the "scope" of a line tech (I was one of those when a younger man, "heavy line", "front-end and brakes", GM and Ford dealers). I just offer information. No ego involved here.

PAX

Jim
05-13-2012 04:48 PM
cobalt327 Makes sense to me... like trying to edit your own writing- sometimes a error will be all but invisible.
05-13-2012 07:48 AM
LATECH
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I recommend that the engine be turned a couple revolutions after aligning the gears to see that the alignment of the dots on the gears is correct.

This can be easily done either just to check the gear alignment or during the course of setting the valves- all it takes is one close look and you know if itís right or not after turning the engine over. This is Timing Set 101 stuff!

That is what I do as the norm. I also like another tech to look . Another set of eyes does two things. It gives a good second check for verification, and helps dispell any question later on if a running problem arises with the engine.
I allways have a second tech look at marks on timing belt driven engines, they can be pretty elusive at times, with the confines body/framework making it difficult to see the marks clearly or squarely.
At any rate sometimes it is best to go get a cup of coffee, and come back in 5 minutes, turn the engine over look again, giving the eyes a break. Sometimes thats all it takes to see it clearly.
05-13-2012 07:39 AM
cobalt327 While I disagree w/the idea that aligning both the marks at 12 o'clock and sighting across the cam gear w/a straightedge is any better than the usually recommended way of doing it- especially on an assembled engine sitting between the fenders of the vehicle (like the OPís situation if I understand it correctly), to each their own. If it works for YOU, that's what matters. But it is not a procedure I will be recommending for the simple reason that it introduces more chance for error than it prevents- IN MY OPINION.

But more importantly IMO is regardless of the method of aligning the marks- putting them at 12 and 12 and straight edging, or some other non-traditional way of aligning the marks, or doing it the normal way- I recommend that the engine be turned a couple revolutions after aligning the gears to see that the alignment of the dots on the gears is correct.

This can be easily done either just to check the gear alignment or during the course of setting the valves- all it takes is one close look and you know if itís right or not after turning the engine over. This is Timing Set 101 stuff!
05-13-2012 07:30 AM
LATECH I install gear sets as the service manual says. 6 o clock 12 o clock whatever.
Degreeing a cam is a great Idea, but not too profitable or logical for a flat rate guy whos just repairing a daily driver for a customer.Granted cam timing was fudged on 70s cars as the thinking was retarded timing would help meet EPA standards, Thank god those days are behind us. If no one was checking by degreeing them, who would have been the wiser?


No one wrong here, just putting a line in the sand. No one needs to get there back up or puff the chest out, so lets just cool out ,have fun , and help someone out. Isnt that why we are here anyway?
05-13-2012 06:10 AM
cool rockin daddy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. P-Body
Another misconception. In truth, it's easier to get a "stock" timing set "lined up" using a straight-edge through the bolt hole "centers", across the "dots" while at 12 o'clock. This reduces the potential for 'missing' the timing by adding a longer distance to check that the dots are truly "lined up". Of course, degreeing the cam is the REAL way to do it "right". Gimme a break guys, I've only done this a few thousand times... (:-

Jim
Yeah, and so what does that prove? You're picking a fight on here with two of the most respected members on this board. And they have basically proved that the six to twelve and the twelve and twelve are exactly the same. So, noob, what exactly is your point? Let me just tell you this: Know-it-alls with attitudes find themselves on people's ignore list really quick around here. If indeed you have done this "thousands" of times, then lose the attitude and share your knowledge in a courteous manner. Have a nice day.
05-13-2012 05:49 AM
Mr. P-Body Another misconception. In truth, it's easier to get a "stock" timing set "lined up" using a straight-edge through the bolt hole "centers", across the "dots" while at 12 o'clock. This reduces the potential for 'missing' the timing by adding a longer distance to check that the dots are truly "lined up". Of course, degreeing the cam is the REAL way to do it "right". Gimme a break guys, I've only done this a few thousand times... (:-

Jim
05-11-2012 09:37 PM
cobalt327 The point is either way accomplishes the exact same thing. One way requires an extra turn of the crank, the other way doesn't. Most guys are going to turn the engine over during the course of setting the valves anyway, so it's largely a moot point...
05-11-2012 08:24 PM
sbchevfreak
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
Use the cam gear to turn the cam so the dots are closest to each other (cam gear at 6 o'clock, crank gear at 12 o'clock)- this makes aligning the dots easier/less chance of an error.

With the timing set in this position (cam gear at 6 o'clock, crank gear at 12 o'clock), cylinder #6 will be on compression. You can set the distributor in with the timing gears in this position if you point the rotor towards #6 distributor cap terminal to set the ignition timing.

Or, rotate the crank one revolution (timing marks are now at 12 o'clock for the cam AND crank gear), then point the rotor towards #1 distributor cap terminal to set the ignition timing.

The bold/underlined areas are the simplest way to do this. I have done it like this for years, w/o any hassels, or comebacks.
05-11-2012 05:25 PM
cobalt327
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafiacustomz
ok im going to get a regulator to solve that problem but i found the real problem it did infact jump time it should be cam gear at 6 oclock and crank gear at 12 oclock the cam is at 6 and the crank is at 2 so it jumped quite abit.

I would like to know if i take the crank back to 12 and thin put the new timing chain and gears on putting the cam at 6 will it be in time or am i going to have to find out if im on compression or exhaust stroke its hard to tell when the motor is still in the car for me any tricks.
Use the cam gear to turn the cam so the dots are closest to each other (cam gear at 6 o'clock, crank gear at 12 o'clock)- this makes aligning the dots easier/less chance of an error.

With the timing set in this position (cam gear at 6 o'clock, crank gear at 12 o'clock), cylinder #6 will be on compression. You can set the distributor in with the timing gears in this position if you point the rotor towards #6 distributor cap terminal to set the ignition timing.

Or, rotate the crank one revolution (timing marks are now at 12 o'clock for the cam AND crank gear), then point the rotor towards #1 distributor cap terminal to set the ignition timing.
05-11-2012 07:07 AM
Mr. P-Body Joe,

Sorry, but this a common misconception. When the "dots" are at 12, #1 cylinder is "up" on compression. When they're "dot to dot", #6 is 'up" and #1 is on "overlap". Remember the piston is at TDC twice during the 4-stroke cycle. TDC "compression" is the key, as you can now place the distributor in "by the book" AND adjust the valves (if necessary) via the "firing order" method (most effective method).

Jim
05-11-2012 04:41 AM
joe_padavano
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. P-Body
Actually, the dots should be both at 12 o'clock (compression, no. 1).

There are several good brands of roller chain sets out there. Highly recommend you replace the old "silent" chain with a modern one. The better ones have indivdual and seamless rollers, .250"diameter. No need for the billet gears with a mild or stock cam.

Jim

Actually, either both at 12 or one at 6 and one at 12 is the same. Cam turns at half crank speed. Olds engines are noninterference, so valves should be fine.
05-10-2012 07:30 PM
Mr. P-Body Actually, the dots should be both at 12 o'clock (compression, no. 1).

There are several good brands of roller chain sets out there. Highly recommend you replace the old "silent" chain with a modern one. The better ones have indivdual and seamless rollers, .250"diameter. No need for the billet gears with a mild or stock cam.

Jim
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