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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-14-2012 09:14 PM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by painted jester View Post
Thats funny LOL I just go to todays posts and never checked the date of the thread LOL

Give me a brake I just turned 66! Why dont they lock these out!!!!

Jester
Me too, interesting, hmmm

Brian
07-14-2012 07:51 PM
painted jester
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizer View Post
Timely post too, Jester! Seeing as the original thread started in 2006, the car is probably ready for another repaint!
Thats funny LOL I just go to todays posts and never checked the date of the thread LOL

Give me a brake I just turned 66! Why dont they lock these out!!!!

Jester
07-14-2012 02:40 PM
Lizer
Quote:
Originally Posted by painted jester View Post
Metalflake corporation, 1-508- 932- 3339 Will ship it to your door! Here. A very good product! They sell all colors not just metal flake or candy's and are now having a sale on some candy's. and are compatible with ppg thinners. The pearls are great! No more lead in lacquers!!!! Im in mich. and can buy lacquer from PPG unless I want candy and pearls then I order from Metal flake.

http://metalflakecorp.com/originals/closeoutsale.pdf

Metalflake Paint - Dazzling 3D Metalic Finishes

Jester
Timely post too, Jester! Seeing as the original thread started in 2006, the car is probably ready for another repaint!
07-14-2012 02:38 PM
Lizer
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAINT GURU View Post
lead content in the lacquer
Bumped a 6 year old thread just to say this, and not even in a complete sentence....

Impressive.
07-13-2012 09:46 PM
painted jester Metalflake corporation, 1-508- 932- 3339 Will ship it to your door! Here. A very good product! They sell all colors not just metal flake or candy's and are now having a sale on some candy's. and are compatible with ppg thinners. The pearls are great! No more lead in lacquers!!!! Im in mich. and can buy lacquer from PPG unless I want candy and pearls then I order from Metal flake.

http://metalflakecorp.com/originals/closeoutsale.pdf

Metalflake Paint - Dazzling 3D Metalic Finishes

Jester
07-13-2012 05:23 PM
BarryK As long as the point is clear VOC is NOT a gauge of danger to YOU, I don’t really care is some minute detail is not totally accurate.

You need to protect yourself, none of these products are “safe”, NONE of them.
BY Brian:

Very good point Brian, the rules are a joke and I will stop there.
Acetone and Oxsol are considered non voc in everything but TBA is considered voc free in primers but not clears, so its safe in a primer or an epoxy but not in a clear??? I'm so confused!!

Also Oxsol is very heavy compared to most solvents that range from 6-8Lbs per gallon, coming in at a fat 11.2 lbs per gallon.
Here is the hazards of Oxsol:

ROUTES OF ENTRY:
Eyes, Ingestion, Inhalation, Skin.
TARGET ORGANS:
Central Nervous System, Kidneys, Liver.
IRRITANCY:
Eyes, Respiratory Tract, Skin.
07-13-2012 02:00 PM
MARTINSR Here is a little basics on VOC. As far as the Lacquer being available, under the "National Rule" that was enacted back in what?...........1999, I forget, I think about then Lacquer was compliant for "restorations of vehicles originally manufactured with lacquer paint" as I remember. What is still the same in the current rule I have no idea, I haven't kept up. But that was the rule as written as I remember.

Brian

************************************************** ************

What in the world is “VOC?”

After seeing the term “VOC” misused lately I thought a little “primer” if you’ll pardon the pun was due.

“VOC” stands for Volatile Organic Compound. Basically it is solvents deemed dangerous to our atmosphere (more on that later) that flashes off during and after application. It is measured by “pounds per gallon”. You will see references like “4.6 VOC” on many products. Meaning that the product has 4.6 pounds per gallon of VOC per sprayable gallon. When you see this on the front of the label it usually refers to “as applied” or “sprayable”, with all components mixed. If you look on the ingredient label you will likely see different numbers, these are referring “as packaged”. That would be the VOC in the can you are looking at, not “as applied” with them all mixed.

Theoretically if you were to mix the product with “4.6 VOC” as applied with all it’s components and set the can out in the sun, after it fully flashed off and there was just hard stuff in the can, it would weigh the 4.6 less. That 4.6 pounds went up into the atmosphere. It wouldn’t happen exactly like that, for a number of reasons but that is the basic theory behind the VOC measurement.

One of the reasons this wouldn’t happen is the fact “not all bad stuff is created equal”. Remember, I said “VOC” is the stuff that goes UP into the atmosphere? Well, the stuff that goes DOWN isn’t VOC is it? Not according to the powers that be in our Federal government. Some solvents are “VOC exempt”, meaning they have ZERO VOC.

The most obvious would be water, it is used in a number of “waterborne” and “waterbase” products. I would make sense to the layman that water is harmless (relatively) in this context. However, there are many other “VOC exempt” compounds such as acetone and chlorobenzotriflouride (oxhaul sp? trade name). Yep, that’s right, acetone is exempt, zero VOC. These two particular solvents are very heavy, they don’t go UP, instead they go DOWN as they flash off. One day they will likely be banned as well because they contaminate our ground water! But for the time being they are a freebie in the automotive paint industry.

You may not see "acetone" or "oxhaul" on the label of many of these products, but that is exactly what is in the can of many reducers these days.

I am sure I am about to loose you so let me get to the point. VOC or the lack of has NOTHING to do with the level of danger in the use of a product, NOTHING. I’m sure we can agree acetone is some nasty stuff, yet it is VOC exempt. Don’t let some one sell you a product that is low or zero VOC on the pretense it is “safe”. Even without the solvents, there is all kinds of stuff that is in the paint. I don’t care if it is waterbase house paint. If you are spraying it, atomizing it, there are particles of the stuff in the air. Do you want to coat your lungs with particles of the “Crescent Moon” off white you are painting your living room in?


Ok, if I haven’t put you to sleep and would like to know more, here goes.

Oxhaul for instance is a very heavy solvent at 9.8 pounds per gallon. That is not only 9.8 lbs of free VOC, but it actually “lowers” the VOC of a given product, here’s how.
If you had a primer that was 10 pounds VOC as packaged and reduced it 1:1 with Oxhaul it would then have a sprayable VOC of 5.1 VOC effectively, half of what it was. This is the only reason lacquer primer is still on the market, reduced with acetone 1:1 it is compliant. Reduced with lacquer thinner it is not even close. I am referring to the “National Rule”, in many areas there are local VOC regulations that restrict it’s sale.

High Solids hardeners for instance many times are zero VOC! So, you have a quart of hardener, with zero VOC, it is full of isocyanates, but it is VOC free. So again, that quart of VOC hardener will “lower” the VOC of the sprayable clear, yet make it MORE hazardous to YOU.

You will see all kinds of goofy mixing ratios like 4:1:1:1 with the first “1” being a urethane reducer and the second “1” being an exempt reducer. This is done to keep the VOC down and the product compliant. When the “National Rule” went into effect back in 1999 (?) you saw all kinds of goofy mixing ratios all of a sudden for this reason. If they didn’t add some exempt solvents (or a LOT of exempt solvents) the product would have been dead on the shelf. So they had to MAKE it compliant to keep selling it.

As I said, it won't likely say "acetone" on the label, but that is what is in the can many times. S-W for instance has three "compliant" reducers that are exempt. The fastest is straight acetone, the next is a 70/30 mix with Oxhaul which is much slower flashing than acetone. The slowest is a 80/20 mix with the majority being Oxhaul.

With these heavy solvents it is imperative that you don’t bomb on the product and give it full flash time. Many primers use acetone to keep the VOC down, if you bomb it on thinking it is “only the primer” you are going to have trouble with the product no curing. I have seen super low VOC products that were mixed correctly (at least I think they were) that were still WET days later because of this.

As a rep I dealt with this stuff all the time and in fact I worked markets in both VOC regulated and no VOC regulated before the National Rule. It has been a few years so I am certainly more than a little rusty in the area. As long as the point is clear VOC is NOT a gauge of danger to YOU, I don’t really care is some minute detail is not totally accurate.

You need to protect yourself, none of these products are “safe”, NONE of them.
07-13-2012 01:46 PM
keig Lead contents as pigment use for Lacquers and all paints were substituted with Titanium dioxide during the mid 70's when they passed the Lead Poisoning Prevention Act. Large Chemical companies and industry supported this since the raw material cost on the modern finishes were so much more economical making the sale of the modern finishes more profitable and marketable.
07-13-2012 08:29 AM
PAINT GURU lead content in the lacquer
11-03-2006 06:09 AM
BarryK Its all VOC's.

This all started with the carter administration when the tree huggers wanted to do something for the green house effect but they did not know what to do.
So they picked the top ten volume used solvents used in the USA and now those are regulated solvents. DUH.

Lacquer paints were 15-20 percent solids so they have a high amount of solvents and are a VOC nightmare.

Urethanes on the other hand will come in at 30% and higher solids.

Edit:
Another factor was when lead was being taken out in the 80"s that one item killed the life and durability of lacquer by well over 50% so that was another reason for the demise.
11-03-2006 05:23 AM
jcclark Can someone explain to me why lacquer is outlawed and yet
spraying urethanes with all those iso's that is so deadly is ok????
11-02-2006 06:18 PM
BarryK Rambo,

Lacquers will work good over epoxy and 2K primers.

A little over a year ago I did with another painter a 67 vette that was classified as a "survivor" It had everything original including paint and original tires.

What we did was strip and epoxy, sprayed 2K and hand sanded without using a block so we would not straighten out any of the factory waves.
Sealed it with epoxy and wet sanded with 800.
Used PPG lacquer with DTL105 and sprayed just enough coats to cover as we were not going to buff so it would have the original gloss as it came from the factory. Each spec of dirt you had to sand and spot because of the no buffing.
This is the third one I have done that way over the years.


A lot of your bigger PPG and Dupont jobbers have lacquer but will tell you now its a $25,000 fine per item to ship to CA. So with thinner since you cannot use acetone that is $50,000.
11-02-2006 06:15 PM
hot34coupe
Acrylic Laquer paint

Hey guys,
Speaking of laquer paint, I painted my 34' coupe earlier this past spring in black acrylic laquer. It is still around here in TN but you really have to look for it. I had 1/3 gal of Dupont 99S and lucked out and found another gallon at an independent paint supplier in town. You might want to go to Dupont's web site and maybe PPG also to see if it is still being produced by them and where you can buy it. It is still available in So. Fla. but you will pay up the gazoo for it.
good luck, Kyle
11-02-2006 05:54 PM
Rambo_The_Dog Ahhh good ol' lacquer paint! Didn't know if you could still buy this stuff or not...Personally still a favorite when I was painting a show car.

Problem is I believe you can't paint lacquer over the polyester primer surfacers/fillers used today you'd have to use the lacquer primer and spot putties to be safe...

maybe someone else who has more recent knowledge of using lacquer - last time I did one was in the mid 80.s~ Doh!
11-02-2006 05:15 PM
matt167 I think I know where your going. It's illegal for any person to send somthing forbidden in california, to another person in california, especially anything to do with VOC's
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