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Topic Review (Newest First)
08-17-2012 08:24 AM
robhardy hardened exhaust seats and valve guides, new vacuum advance , block, radiator, and heater core purged o years of build up. new brass freeze plugs new rod and main bearings, timing chain, water pump, and oil pump while we were in there=no pings. also found some vacuum leaks. runs much better and has substantial power gains. only problem now is that it misses at idle while in gear. it's not consistant but two plugs seem to be getting way less juice than the rest. worn distributor? bad wires? i'm going to let it idle in the dark tonight and see how much arcing is going on. the wires look new but the car sat for 17 years that i know of and they may have been new then. i'm basically figuring on replacing them either way.
06-11-2012 08:47 AM
robhardy
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielC
What distributor is on the engine? Is there a possibility that maybe the mechanical (centrifugal) or the vacuum advance do not return to the position due to hardened grease, a broken spring, or some other problem with the distributor, that is holding the timing too far advanced under some conditions?
it appears to be factory. it also seems to be running much better since i made sure all the distributor ends of the plug wires were connected properly.
looks like i just got in a hurry after it cranked and ran so much more easily than i expected it to. i usually check a plug every now and then on my older stuff and then check my wires (which is exactly how i found this). when i put the new plugs in and it idled smooth i just kind of said "runs good" and decided to drive it.
i still think i may need to re-jet the carb and i'll definitely change the valve seats and guides. other than that i'll probably put a petronix eletronic ignition conversion kit in then see about advancing the timing and let it go til it needs a build. at that point it may get some mods (if i've kept it that long it means it's mine and i'll make get away from the keep it original plan).
06-11-2012 06:54 AM
DanielC What distributor is on the engine? Is there a possibility that maybe the mechanical (centrifugal) or the vacuum advance do not return to the position due to hardened grease, a broken spring, or some other problem with the distributor, that is holding the timing too far advanced under some conditions?
06-11-2012 06:07 AM
robhardy i live on the alabama georgia line in the center of the state. ft.benning is maybe 10 miles from my driveway. getting in and out of post is a pain if you don't have a sticker on your windshield.
06-10-2012 10:09 PM
Thumpin455 So you must be on the coast. The Navy exchange is open to the public. If I want E85 instead of home brew I have to drive 22 miles to get it, but I live on the far opposite end of the country from you, almost due north. Get out of the upper peninsula and its everywhere, especially in Wisconsin. Your area has refineries, so they wont let much ethanol in there to compete with gas. Maybe in the future, so its an option.
06-10-2012 10:07 PM
robhardy i can't believe i'm this stupid. i decided to pull a plug and see what i could tell. the only thing i could read was that i had run some octane boost through it earlier this week. the off shoot was that i happened to decide to check the distributor end of the plug wires and found that they weren't seated on the cap completely. pushed them all down until they snapped into place and poured a can o sea foam in the tank. put in about an hour behind the wheel and couldn't get a ping out of it until i climbed thrill hill while accelerating and even then it was minimal. starting to wonder if i need to re-jet the carb or not. ambient temperature was only around 70. i want to run it in town on a 95 degree day before i go calling it fixed. never crossed my mind to check the distributor end of the wires when i changed the plugs. i'm going to check the same plug in the morning and see what i find now. this just seems a little too simple.
06-10-2012 12:34 PM
robhardy [QUOTE=Thumpin455]Depending on where you live in Alabama, you could run an E85 carb and it will clean the carbon out, run cooler, make more power, and never ping again no matter where the timing is set. There are quite a few stations carrying it, and once you get the varnish and crud out of the lines and tank, all you need is a carb swap to run it. Go here, http://e85prices.com/e85map.php put your town in the search bar and it will show you where the pumps are.

A carb swap is cheaper than pulling the heads, swapping pistons, and works better than retarding the timing and buying race gas. I run it in my 70 GTO, 98 Formula, 98 Gran Prix, and 76 C10. The GTO has 13:1 compression in its 455, and it loves the stuff. The negative stuff you hear is mostly BS, but you will use a bit more fuel with E85 unless you have high compression, over 12:1. The more squeeze you have the less fuel you will use. The difference in my low CR engines is about 2-4mpg.

doesn't look like a real option for me. i would either have to go on to a military base or drive about 30 miles one way to get to the nearest stations. it also looks like they may both be in airports (i think i can strike gassing up at a military airfield off my list of possibilities).
i'm paying 10 dollars a gallon for the 114 octane right now but i know a lot of dirt track guys and can probably get a better deal.
i'm going to run a can of sea foam through it, then change the fuel filter and tune the carb. if that doesn't get it, i'll play with the timing.
if that doesn't get it i'll throw out the "keep it original" plan and look at some after market bolt on heads with bigger combustion chambers and better flow to try to balance out the loss of compression. (but, from what i understand these are some pretty good stock heads where flow is concerned).
the e85 is an interesting option, though. if it were more available i'd consider it for this car (it's a convertible and i'm not interested in hopping it up all that much).
06-10-2012 11:29 AM
Thumpin455 Depending on where you live in Alabama, you could run an E85 carb and it will clean the carbon out, run cooler, make more power, and never ping again no matter where the timing is set. There are quite a few stations carrying it, and once you get the varnish and crud out of the lines and tank, all you need is a carb swap to run it. Go here, http://e85prices.com/e85map.php put your town in the search bar and it will show you where the pumps are.

A carb swap is cheaper than pulling the heads, swapping pistons, and works better than retarding the timing and buying race gas. I run it in my 70 GTO, 98 Formula, 98 Gran Prix, and 76 C10. The GTO has 13:1 compression in its 455, and it loves the stuff. The negative stuff you hear is mostly BS, but you will use a bit more fuel with E85 unless you have high compression, over 12:1. The more squeeze you have the less fuel you will use. The difference in my low CR engines is about 2-4mpg.

You can always pull the engine apart, swap dished pistons in and lose power too. Its up to you because its your car. It just makes more sense to me to use a better fuel and keep the compression, because compression adds efficiency and power. E85 is quite a bit cheaper than race gas, in some places its under $3.
06-10-2012 10:38 AM
robhardy ok,
you guys all touched on things that i've been running through my mind.
Fuel delivery: new lines, filter and carb. but that is kind of the direction i'm leaning toward. i'll probably change the filter since what i drained out of the old fuel lines was pretty nasty.
cooling: this car only has idiot lights. i've checked the temperature in various places after running it pretty hard and it reads anywhere from 180 to 210 depending on where i set the thermometer. i'm going to be changing all the freeze plugs in a couple of weeks and will flush the system then.
timing: my eyes aren't very good anymore but i'm pretty sure it says 6 btdc and if it is 9 wouldn't 6 be less likely to ping?
carb: i'm going to let my buddy tune it while i'm out of town.
pistons: i had considered that but don't want to if i don't have to.
valves: i know, i've got to do it.
carbon build up: yes, i was thinking about the old tranny fluid trick or sea foam. (if the weather were more agreeable i'd be doing that today.)
so, you guys have me thinking i'm on the right track at least.
most of what you listed is stuff that i'm going to be addressing over the next couple of weeks or have been looking at anyway.
thanks for the input.
06-10-2012 10:32 AM
Greg T After that many miles you could be experiencing a pile of carbon on top of the pistons and combustion chamber. I would use some ATF down the carb while it's idling, followed by an overnight soak, followed by a quart of water being trickled. Then, take it out and beat on it til the smoke and steam clear up. See how it acts after that.
06-10-2012 07:06 AM
Irelands child A stock intake with an Edelbrock 1406 wont work right until you remove or block off the EGR plate underneath of it. Also, the 1406 as received needs to be richened up some for a 351W (I assume it's a Windsor)

As far as CR, 93 octane should work just fine - but those valves, unless you have installed hardened seats will 'go away' eventually. Lead substitute will only prolong the inevitable for a while.

These are not a particularly temperature sensitive engine, but 200* should be your limit.

Pistons - a 4bbl engine will probably have flat tops. The 2 bbl will be dished and is an eventual choice.

Vacuum leaks - gotta check the hoses and carb base gaskets.

Timing - 6*?? These are 9-10 normally
06-10-2012 06:35 AM
LATECH Sounds more like it is running too warm. After 30-45 minutes everything will be good and warm.That is when the pinging starts right?
Make sure the cooling system is up to snuff, clean the fins of the radiator, also look inside it could be pretty well plugged by deposits, you may need to drain the radiator to see the plugged tubes from the inside.
You could try a chemical flush on the system.Also check the thermostatic fan
operation. It should lock in and pull air at a certain temp.When it is at full warm up,check to see if it is pulling air aggressively, or if it is just freewheeling.
You may need to watch it while having it warmed up, in park while setting it on a fast idle.Give it a few minutes to get real warm, then You will be able to hear when it starts to pull air.If it never gets to the point where it locks down and pulls air, it probably is defective.Also watch the rad temp with an infra red temp gun. Check it at the top inlet of the rad as it runs.If it hits 235-240 and you get no fan action, then either the rad isn't throwing enough heat or the fan aint working.

Also I would check the full amount of ignition timing advance, maybe you can limit the vacuum amount or mechanical amount to help the situation.
Chances are the vacuum is pulling a bunch and would be the place to start.
Maybe you can limit that to help, but I would address the cooling system first to be sure.
Also, if the engine has carbon build up on the piston tops that will increase the compression and cause a problem.You can rig up a seafoam drip to help clean the carbon from the tops, and that may help a lot. Plus it is pretty easy and inexpensive, and could solve the problem.
If it has an EGR valve check its operation as well. If it fails to work it can also cause a spark knock when warm. Recirculated exhaust gas introduced into the combustion chamber actually slows the burn keeping the combustion chamber cooler at the top, which helps to prevent pinging.Manufacturers install EGR to help keep Oxides of Nitrogen in check as it cools the combustion chamber temps.


I don't think the issue is only one thing. My guess is a couple of things in combination.
I recommend checking and trying the aforementioned items before " digging in" to any specific thing, carb - heads whatever,as it could be that simple.
If I were to guess, I would say radiator is borderline, and or engine has excessive carbon.

Keep us posted.
06-10-2012 05:25 AM
bondo
Quote:
it runs good for the first 30 or 45 minutes then it pings like crazy during acceleration. i'm mixing racing fuel with 93 octane pump gas and using lead substitute.
Ayuh,... My guess is, Bad fuel delivery,....

It's goin' Lean, causing the detonation...

Change the fuel filters, 'n test the fuel pump pressure, 'n flow...
06-09-2012 08:14 PM
robhardy
69 351w 4v

ok,
i've put about 700 miles on the torino. it runs good for the first 30 or 45 minutes then it pings like crazy during acceleration. i'm mixing racing fuel with 93 octane pump gas and using lead substitute.
at idle the timing is 6 btdc which is what the sticker on the valve cover calls for. i'm thinking i should retard the timing but a mechanic buddy is saying i need to re-jet the carb. i replaced the original with an edelbrock 1406 (other than that everything appears to be original and unmolested).
according to everything i've read this engine has a c/r of 10.7 to 1. that isn't going to work on pump gas and mixing the 114 octane isn't making much of a difference so far.
the car only has 81k. as much as it goes against my nature it seems like i should keep this original.
so, how do i lower my compression ratio without going too deep into the engine?

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