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Topic Review (Newest First)
08-21-2012 11:41 AM
tech69 yeah, the grinder one is cool. I'll try that. I usually use a rice patty.
08-21-2012 10:56 AM
NovaSS350
Quote:
Heres another very handy way to clean the backside of the 1/4 from whatever is back there like undercoating etc...the metal has to be cleaned up if you want a good seam,just put a disc on the other side of the backing plate,facing you
Good tip. Thanks,
08-21-2012 04:43 AM
deadbodyman I think mine is 3/8 but if your measuring all that out heres a little helper..just flange a piece of scrap and use that to mark the 1/4 for cutting it works much faster and no measuring...I know everyone says measure twice and cut once but I say dont measure unless you have too..
Heres another very handy way to clean the backside of the 1/4 from whatever is back there like undercoating etc...the metal has to be cleaned up if you want a good seam,just put a disc on the other side of the backing plate,facing you
08-20-2012 09:14 AM
tech69
Quote:
Originally Posted by NovaSS350 View Post
Thanks guys. I was planning on going with skins and you guys seem to agree that's the way to go.
If you do a flanged repair the quarter will need 5/8" more metal under the scribe line. Not sure about all flangers but mine is always 5/8" and when I put that much extra it ends up perfect and then all I have to do is bevel the edge of the skin and it lays down good and flush.
08-20-2012 06:37 AM
deadbodyman Theres no doubt that full repo 1/4's are better than skins but the fit and sharpness at the top of the full 1/4 isnt as good (trunk jamb and sail panel around rear window) as the old ones so I keep the original top surfaces... so every chance I get I buy the full 1/4's and cut them down to full skins with the (flanged) seam as far up the side as I can go.
I've done so many 1/4s and skinsI have no clue just how many ,hundreds??? and done them every way possible so you can get the skin and spend twice the labor fixing it to make it look right and end up with a 1/4 full of bondo or you can spend more on a full repo 1/4 and save all the labor and end up with a 1/4 that is all steel with little filler (us pros can always tell the difference) cutting down the full 1/4's is so much better than using the full 1/4 its rediculus and if your going to use skins be prepared for a good fight. Its very frustrating tring to fit a skin and the fit really sucks especially around the wheel wells.
So the choice is yours, go with the full 1/4s(trimed down) and have a fairly EZ install or save a few hundred and have a nightmare....at least you'll be pretty good at laying on bondo when your done with the cheapo repos..
BUT before you go out and order anything try finding some really nice used ones from the dryer climate areas ,you'd be surprized whats still out there. getting a "chunk" (the whole corner of the car) is always the "BEST" way and many times the cheapest..if a chunk is available you wouldwant to install it at all the factory seams and not use ANY filler with the exception of the factory seam at the sail panel....
So do it any way you want but remember if you save a little on the parts you'll be spending more than that on labor....
08-19-2012 07:39 AM
NovaSS350 Thanks guys. I was planning on going with skins and you guys seem to agree that's the way to go.
08-17-2012 09:30 AM
tech69
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
You're right, advice given needs to be given properly and I broke a rule of mine tossing out butt welding it. If he has that info, along with info on flanging or butt weld with backing he can make an informed decision.

But you are very right, it's would be wrong to tell someone to do something that is over their head and they ruin their car because it.

Brian
it's only cause you have pride in what you do. No mistake about that and you are also giving him his options, as you stated. Heck, I'd venture to say part of me is a part of you thanks to your advice through the years.
08-17-2012 09:19 AM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by tech69 View Post
And as I was saying, I wasn't knocking you, I was knocking your advice given to an amateur.
You're right, advice given needs to be given properly and I broke a rule of mine tossing out butt welding it. If he has that info, along with info on flanging or butt weld with backing he can make an informed decision.

But you are very right, it's would be wrong to tell someone to do something that is over their head and they ruin their car because it.

Brian
08-17-2012 08:08 AM
tech69 And as I was saying, I wasn't knocking you, I was knocking your advice given to an amateur.

I have that mindset ever since I saw this guy blow tons of money on his restoration and even flow coated the clear. I asked him why he's flow coating clear when the body wasn't even straight. He didn't have an answer. I guess he should have then at that point put a couple more apps of expensive clear on there to block.
08-17-2012 07:56 AM
MARTINSR Henry, I can only go by what you tell me and you said you wouldn't butt weld that quarter. That is all I am referring to. It isn't a knock on you or anything of course we can see the beautiful work you do that Skylark is stunning.

Brian
08-17-2012 07:56 AM
tech69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizer View Post

Re: my quarter, I don't remember what you concluded you thought was wrong with it. I know it's the quarter. I set it too high, I didn't set it down against the rocker enough. That I know for sure because I was there and I did it. I haven't rehung the door again, but I know the lines won't match because I haven't actually changed anything yet. I'll need to put my best effort into hanging the door first before deciding what to do, at which point I'll have to go back through that thread again.
You're agreeing with what I said it was, so measure the distance between the top C line and the lower of the top two lines with tape marking the peak of the lines. If there's a difference at the edge to the door and other quarter you got your culprit. At that point line up your door to the lines you know are right and your rocker. Then, you'll know where that C line area needs to be.
08-17-2012 07:54 AM
Lizer He's actually speaking to the original poster, not you directly in 'stepping it up a notch.'
08-17-2012 07:49 AM
tech69
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
I am not doing this stuff everyday but yes I did it all the time. I also suggest flanging for anyone not up to the butt weld. But honestly, butt welding is more of a line you need to cross. Once you cross it, you never look back. I am with you and have suggested with great argument to flange if butt welding is out of one's comfort zone, especially for a newbe. It is pretty overwhelming, but not impossible. Let me put it this way, if you screw up, just put a backing, done deal.

The trick is to get the panel fit well, clamped in and fit well BEFORE you mark it. I went to a Toyota training where they told us we had to butt weld everything with no backing. I went right back to the shop and started butt welding quarter panels, C pillars, rockers and the like. We are talking 22 gauge! I just started doing it, because they said to. Wham, it was as easy as pie and I never looked back.

But again, you are right in that I have defended the flange too. I have used them plenty, but honestly, I have used them too much. But in their defense I have never understood the arguments I have heard NOT to use them. The one that cracks me up the most is the whole "They are a moisture trap" The ENTIRE CAR is made from them! EVERY SINGLE joint on the ENTIRE car, on EVERY SINGLE CAR MADE is a flange, lap or pinch weld, the same exact "moisture trap" so what is one more on a car?

Running the flange right below that body line is going to be pretty much hidden unless you stick your head up in the quarter thru the trunk no one is ever going to see it.

But if you want to step it up a knotch, start butt welding. But you are right, I shouldn't be throwing butt welding such a long weld out there without knowing more about the experience of the poster, or his expectations.

Brian
step it up a notch? What makes you think I don't open butt weld? I let my work do the talking. No need to talk myself up.
08-17-2012 07:36 AM
Lizer
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
By the way, you know one thing that changed how close I got the seam dramatically was one day a co-worker came up to me when I was about to trim a new quarter and showed me to clamp the quarter on and cut both panels at once! LOL, simple but I had never done this. Everything is trimmed away and ready to go, you just leave the new quarter an inch or so longer than you plan at the seam. You clamp that quarter on tight checking the door fit and all. Once you have it in there tight, using a 1/32 cut off disc you cut thru both of them at once. Remove the new quarter and complete the trimming of the piece off the old quarter and wham, you have a perfect fit, with a 1/32" or so gap. Perfect for a backing, which the piece you cut off works perfect for that!

Brian
This is exactly how I did mine except I only cut through the original panel, using the top cut edge of the replacement panel as a guide. But this idea...actually cutting through both sounds a lot better! Live and learn...
08-17-2012 07:33 AM
Lizer
Quote:
Originally Posted by tech69 View Post
actually, YOU are speaking theoretically. You don't even know at this point how it turned out. I'm speaking in practical terms from experience and from being accustomed to standard operation in the body shop.

No really, most shops don't do it cause it takes too long and they might not even trust the tech to do it right, and if it's not welded on right that thing might cave in on a small hit.

btw, are you talking about that quarter that I trouble shooted and figured out what was wrong with it? So do the lines match now? Shoot some pics.

I'd equate Martin's advice on this to telling a newb to wet sand clear with 600. Sure the guys explaining can do it well, real well, but that might not be the case with others. What I mean is....I've seen so many newbs take advice like that, go the extra mile to do things right, yet the car looks like crap in the end. not saying that's gonna be you but I've seen it SOOO many times that I almost want to suggest to all beginners to just spray single stage or get a couple gallons of slick sand and make it easier on themselves. Their next build a different story.
In regards to the very specific concern you had--that it would be difficult to ensure the two panels stay at just the right angle--I am not speaking theoretically because I can say with complete certainty (because I witnessed it) that there was not an issue with keeping the panels properly aligned/mated.

I'm not advocating a butt weld or flange weld, especially since I've never done a flange weld. All I'm merely saying is when I did this, I did not experience the issue with difficulty in keeping the panels lined up, or pulled out, etc. That part was not difficult in the least.

The difficult part was keeping the panel from warping and taking it slow. Both times I welded in the panel I actually did it over the course of several days. The killer was the warpage doesn't begin to become real noticeable until maybe 50-70% of the welds were in. The second time around I treated it from the very first weld as if there was warpage because I knew there would be. The first time through when I did not see overt warpage I thought I was doing good. However, once that warpage became overt it was PISSED OFF and it was past the point of no return. And it was because of a different welding technique I was trying.

All said and done, you guys have piqued my interest in doing a flange weld on the next skin I do. I'd like to experience both to see what I like better. I can see how a flange would be preferable in a production shop if only from the standpoint that there's less welding time. I don't know how they are in warpage comparison. I would assume a flange weld would get less warpage.

Re: my quarter, I don't remember what you concluded you thought was wrong with it. I know it's the quarter. I set it too high, I didn't set it down against the rocker enough. That I know for sure because I was there and I did it. I haven't rehung the door again, but I know the lines won't match because I haven't actually changed anything yet. I'll need to put my best effort into hanging the door first before deciding what to do, at which point I'll have to go back through that thread again.

Back to the topic at hand, Brian put it well in his more recent post...eventually you just have to do it. My project is chalk full of 'just did it's.' I am still pretty happy with everything I've done and several body men who have looked at my work have been really impressed, but that's not to say it's still not without its fair share of imperfections, however subtle or unsubtle they may be (hopefully they are the former).
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