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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-28-2012 02:56 PM
69 widetrack Like i always say Brian...."Life is the easiest thing we will go through, it's only people that get in the way."

Ray
10-28-2012 02:37 PM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
I said "let me answer that with a question, How do we get it out of the can if it doesn't run?"
LOL, yep, makes sense to me.

Brian
10-28-2012 01:29 PM
69 widetrack I am a firm believer in pushing product to and past the limits set out by the manufacturer. When I was a Manufacturers Representative for paint companies it was easy. We always got gallons of new product thrown at us and we could use and abuse as much as we wanted. I felt it was vital to load product, run product, shoot it hot, shoot it cold and try to make it fail in every way possible. This way I was armed with information before it hit the shop floor. Very often it's what we've done wrong that enables us to do things right...As long as we watch, listen and learn.

Just a short thing that happened last week, it's kind of what I thought was funny, but, some "Reps" just don't get it either. A shop that I used to deal with and still have a great personal relationship with called me to help with a new 2013 car and had color issue (bad match, no variant close). When I get to the shop the Factory Paint Rep is in the mixing room with the painters and what comes out of his mouth, "go ahead guys, you can't make this NEW clear run"...The owner of the shop looked at me and asked, "what do you think Ray", I didn't want to make anybody look bad but I had to respond. I said "let me answer that with a question, How do we get it out of the can if it doesn't run?"
10-28-2012 01:02 PM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
I would much sooner deal with someone that tells me that they made a mistake than the person who says, "I don't know what happened, I did everything right".
We had a head painter at work who was put in the position when the old head painter quit. My employer is a great family who will bend over backwards for people (they have kept me 12 years right?) and they worked with this guy WAY too long. He just didn't get it, he had no passion and just didn't get it. I knew most every rep that came by even from different companies as many of the guys I worked with when a rep had moved onto other jobs. Every time someone came in to work with him I would speak off the record and they all said the same thing, he refused to accept that HE was making mistakes, it was always the product, the product. I would watch him around the shop and then be able to tell the techs what to work with him on because he wouldn't tell them himself.

They all worked and worked and worked and he would come around and do some decent work for a week or two then slowly go right back to the same, it was bizarre!

A number of months ago he went into the boss and told him he couldn't take the pressure anymore and wanted someone else to take over. Two preppers who have a lot of passion jumped in and are doing a MUCH better job than the "head painter" did!

One of the things they will do is to do experiments, it's something I am big on, get a fender out of the metal bin and shoot it, pushing things, push recoat time, push primer, go to the outer limits so you can SEE what happens. When you are spraying everyday and have something happen in front of you it makes sense, you know what to do to correct it. If you never see what the outer limits are, how do you know when you are seeing the first hint of it?

Brian
10-28-2012 09:49 AM
69 widetrack That's exactly what I was getting at...Painting is an ART. Installing ball joints, aligning front ends and framing a house (I'm not trying to put down these professions, they are valuable and we need all of them) are more of a trade. Hence the difference between a "Painter" and an "Applicator". A painter, in my opinion, is someone who cares about what they are doing, anticipates a situation, analyses the problem and comes to a workable solution. A painter is someone that see's the finished product in their head before the vehicle hits the both. A painter is the person that can look at a color and tell you what it needs to minimize blend area. An applicator puts paint on a car and hopes it passes when the customer comes to pick it up.

What I see here are a bunch of people that have shown that they care enough to start a new post and, for everyone to see, don't let pride get in the way and ask for advice. The worst person to put behind a paint gun is the one who claims he knows everything. I would much sooner deal with someone that tells me that they made a mistake than the person who says, "I don't know what happened, I did everything right".
10-28-2012 09:27 AM
MARTINSR You know what's funny Ray, at the shop I have been working in the past 12 years we got a wheel alignment machine at some point years ago. I am the kind of guy who JUMPS at the chance to learn something more, and to broaden my skills into any area I can. I was the one who jumped at the chance to learn this machine and everything I could about aligning. The first thing I found was that there is no "sort of" or opinions in it. There are the numbers, clear as day, it works, or it doesn't. Don't get me wrong there are lots of times you use your experience and work with "wrong" numbers but there are the numbers and you can clearly see them. I found the fact that you had those numbers to work with very refreshing and a big change from color matching and body work.

Brian
10-28-2012 09:20 AM
69 widetrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclopsblown34 View Post
Brad, it looks like you've had a mishap even these experts can't solve. Sarcastic congratulations on that one. These guys have taught me more in the few years I've been on here than I learned in 15 years of painting in my own shop with just the paint supplier and outdated body and paint books for knowledge.
Well Brad, I'd like to sum it up the best I can. I feel I can speak for any person who has come to this thread and given their opinion, suggestion and or a possibility of "what may have happened". The fact is, we don't know. Any, some, a few, all and even none of what has been discussed here is the absolute reason for the failure. We have taken the experiences we have garnered from our past and past them on to you, hoping to give you, and anyone reading who has had a similar situation, that "ah ha moment", striking that memory nerve that reminds you that is what was done to create this problem. That doesn't always happen but, what has happened is that a number of viable probables have been discussed and perhaps the people that read this thread can at sometime in the future use the information discussed here and avoid a similar situation. As I mentioned earlier, paint is a tricky mistress, it's not like putting in a ball joint or throwing on a set of brake pads...it takes that human thought process to get to the end results we want. Any time you add in the human element, you have problems. Case in point...look at any religion.

Hope this helps
Ray
10-28-2012 08:50 AM
cyclopsblown34 Brad, it looks like you've had a mishap even these experts can't solve. Sarcastic congratulations on that one. These guys have taught me more in the few years I've been on here than I learned in 15 years of painting in my own shop with just the paint supplier and outdated body and paint books for knowledge.
10-28-2012 07:06 AM
deadbodyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad4321 View Post
While that is true, would I go from peeling off in layers to good adhesion with a 20% drop? If it was wet enough to not get adhesion on basically a 12"x12" square, I would think I would still get some adhesion problems if it did dry faster, even if not as severe.

I recreated to the best of my knowledge. Same number of coats, through pearl and all, and pearl measured out the same. I wonder if the problem isn't something I am consciously aware of, such as there being sanding dust left there, silicone from the door handles, something to that effect as mentioned earlier in this thread.
I dont know anything about waterborn W&G I've never used it and dont ever plan on it...what I do know is is I've painted when its raining out hundreds of times 100% humidity and Ieven used to wet down the floor for years(now days I'll wash it down and wiat for it to dry) and never had anything like that happen..To this day I prefer painting when its raining out or first thing in the morning when the dew is covering the ground because theres no bugs or dirt in the air..I seem to get my best work then...Maybe it could be as simple as there was a ton of wax on there and it needed to be dewaxed several times to get it all off...who knows???? But then again Ray made a good point ,if it was a wax problem you would have known as soon as the base hit the panel it'll fisheye like crazy...we may never know I'm certainly stumped...
10-27-2012 01:33 PM
MARTINSR That's right, Brad, forgive my harsh responses it's just me, I ask for a cup of coffee the same way sometimes, I don't mean it like a put down or anything, just pointing out something.

Brian
10-27-2012 12:50 PM
Brad4321
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
Brad, read this comment of Ray's again, THIS is all you need to understand. THIS is it in a nutshell, and brilliantly explained, the results changed so you didn't do it the same, end of story.

Brian
Isn't that exactly what I said? The cause is something that I did not recreate?

While I don't necessarily believe in the sanding dust or silicone either, it is likely as you say: a combination of things making the perfect storm. If the waterborne dry time was the single cause, I think I would have seen something with this test. The "perfect storm" is hard to prevent, but a single fix like giving the waterborne and extra 15 minutes is quite easy.
10-27-2012 11:54 AM
69 widetrack All Brian and I are saying is that what happened on the test panel is different due to one of the many variables you can experience when painting. One thing that I think you can rule out is silicone being the problem. If silicone was that concentrated that it wouldn't allow paint to stick, you would have had more fish eyes in the surrounding area than you could imagine. Another being sanding dust...can't see that being the issue for many reasons.

I've been painting for many years (over 30 years) and trying to solve problems for techs in body shops for nearly as long. Every once in a while you do run into a situation that defies all reasonable explanation for the information you are given. There is an explanation out there, what it is I can't give you a 100%, yep this is it answer. I ran into a situation similar to yours about 18 years ago, beat our heads into the wall for weeks, couldn't figure it out. A few weeks go by and an apprentice took me aside and asked if opening and closing the bay door while somebody was painting could be a problem, (Cold Winter day, no air make up unit to control booth temperature). We recreated this situation with a 2 minute door open. Temperature inside the booth dropped by 45 degrees and took over 20 minutes to recover. This shocked the paint but it seemed to adhere...for about 10 days. We pressure washed the test panel and the paint blew off. Will this happen every time? I don't know, as in your case, to many variables. If everything was exact in this trade, we wouldn't need forums like this, every paint job would be perfect and all would be well. It's these things that make it all interesting and enhance the learning experience.
10-27-2012 11:33 AM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
The analogy of "the perfect storm" is 100% correct because if everything was the same, the same results will happen, if the results change the perfect storm was not recreated.
Ray
Brad, read this comment of Ray's again, THIS is all you need to understand. THIS is it in a nutshell, and brilliantly explained, the results changed so you didn't do it the same, end of story.

Brian
10-27-2012 11:12 AM
Brad4321 While that is true, would I go from peeling off in layers to good adhesion with a 20% drop? If it was wet enough to not get adhesion on basically a 12"x12" square, I would think I would still get some adhesion problems if it did dry faster, even if not as severe.

I recreated to the best of my knowledge. Same number of coats, through pearl and all, and pearl measured out the same. I wonder if the problem isn't something I am consciously aware of, such as there being sanding dust left there, silicone from the door handles, something to that effect as mentioned earlier in this thread.
10-27-2012 09:04 AM
69 widetrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
I have to say it does NOT shoot down the waterborne wax and grease remover not being out of the film before paint. 20% more humitity could be a HUGE factor in this. Think about it, the water in the W&G needs to evaporate, where is it going to evaporate too? Into the air is where, if that air already has a ton of moisture in it, the bus is full, it can't get on!

There is always the "perfect storm" where many very small things add up, without the extra humidity, everything else the same, no problem. With the same humidity and leaving the surface 5 more minutes to flash off, no problem. See what I mean, without the perfect storm of both these conditions, no problem.

I am not saying for sure of course, I don't know, but it can't be discounted. This was a very odd failure so the real answer is out there somewhere in the cosmos.

Brian
Your right Brian, the perfect storm needs to be recreated, the questions I would have just to start are, How wet did the product go on the test panel, How many coats of base, Was the test panel shot up right (like a door on a truck) or laying flat on the table. I could go on.

The analogy of "the perfect storm" is 100% correct because if everything was the same, the same results will happen, if the results change the perfect storm was not recreated.

Excellent post Brian, this is good information for all.

Ray
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