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Basecoat Did Not Adhere

31K views 126 replies 18 participants last post by  69 widetrack 
#1 ·
I have gotten myself into another newbie screw up, but I don't know what I did wrong and could really use some guidance.

This is an 05 superduty. I had some major bodywork on the bed, but the cab was sound. Original paint was sanded flat with 180 (did not break through to metal) and I sprayed 3 coats of SPI 2k. That was sanded flat with 320 and then 600.

4 coats of TCPGlobal's Restoration Shop basecoat was applied (coverage was less than expected) with a half hour between coats. Outside temperature was 66 degrees with a humidity of 40%. I only had slow reducer in stock, so I have it a much longer recoat time to be safe (TS says 10 minutes at 70). The base flashed off in approx 10 minutes. The basecoat was activated with SPI clear coat activator.

I waited 1 hour and shot SPI Intercoat Clear with HOK Ice Pearl. 2 coats, 30 minutes between coats. Intercoat was activated as well. Temperature was 75 degrees at time of shooting intercoat and stayed above 65 degrees for about 6 hours. I do not know actual metal temperature.

Truck sat overnight and 5 coats of SPI Universal was applied with 45 minutes between coats, normal activator with a air temperature of 75 degrees.

The truck was untaped the next day and pulled into the sun. I have waited 1 week in the sun (as I normally do) and started color sanding. I then noticed the basecoat is peeling off of both front doors in sheets. I have attached pictures in this link: Paint Delamination pictures by Brad4321 - Photobucket . I also added one picture of the hood a day after being painted. The paint looked really good, layed down like normal, and I didn't expect this to happen.

In the peeled paint, I can see grey outlines of where I sanded. This is the first vehicle I sanded with 600 before basecoat, I have always stopped at 320. I sanded to 600 as I read on here that it gives a smoother finish to metallics, pearl, flake, and etc. I strongly suspect that this is the source of failure, but I am not certain. The temperature was also marginal, but I have never had problems before with this temp.

It is actively peeling from both doors, but not from the rest of the truck. It may very well peel from the entire truck, I haven't tried past the doors. I should also mention that I used SPI waterborne and tact rags as well.

Anyone know the cause of this and how I should fix? Can I sand it back down to spi primer or will I need to start all over?
 
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#79 ·
I was thinking last night, about your base coat. I had a problem with a Sikkens special mix to match a ppg Lincoln glamor color for a 65 Impala complete color change, and it acted strange it never quite hardened all the way it felt like a super ball I took a razor and scraped a small piece off my practice piece and it stretched like cellophane! It was right at the time Keystone took over Sikkens in our area! I called a rep at Keystone no real help so I called a Sikkens rep and one came to the shop he mixed it as to the tech sheet and sprayed it on a sample square he brought with him, and took a sample of the paint to have analyzed And left. He called about a week later and told me what was wrong THEY GAVE ME THE WRONG TECH SHEET!!!!:pain: AND ON THE CAN THEY STUCK THE WRONG LABEL:ON!!!!! :pain: :eek: :drunk: :boxing:. I was supposed to get a tech sheet for L.V. 350 and a can label for L.V. 350, which is what was mixed in the can!! But I received a can labeled B.T.L.V 350 and a tech sheet for B.L.T.V. 350

The mix on the B.T.L.V. 350 is 3to1to1 but the L.V. is 1to1/2to1/4 He also told me the B.T.L.V. 350 is exclusive to Europe not here!!!

It was like pouring salt on an open wound:pain: I went nuts on this poor guy :evil: :boxing: :spank: :pain: it wasn't his fault !!! > Barry will remember:< I already had a problem having to seal Sikkens sealer with another sealer we talked about it LOL :D ( who seals a sealer with another sealer ??? :confused:)

I got an apology and they Supplied all new materials in abundance LOL I have gallons left over LOL :thumbup: I used Sikkens in the past about 20 years ago But Ill never use Sikkens again!!!:nono: and they talked to the customer which I didn't ask them to do :thumbup: But none of my extra labor was paid and I couldn't charge my customer to repaint the car so I lost!:pain:

Any way maybe you could have the Base coat analyzed to see if there was any kind of problem! They may do it free!

Jester
 
#94 ·
I just retired and sold my shop I owned since the early '80s. And now do it at home (no overhead, good hours, I can walk to work 30 feet away ETC,:D LOL I can smoke cigars ( there's a no smoking law in Michigan:pain:) I can melt lead and weld, etc etc, but cant smoke!!!!!:eek: :drunk:

A lot of paint co. are really good, When you spend 2000dollors on material for a basic paint job! I would call and ask you never know! And if you picked it up at a hardware LOL, Or an auto store the owner or manager that mixed or ordered your paint could and should have it done!


To the thread starter: I don't know if this was mentioned but the base could have been contaminated in the store before you even received it especially if they formulated it and put it in the can! A lot of stores store thier empty cans open in a back room or somewhere in the store and can be contaminated very easily!! The bumper to bumper stare close to me stores their cans right next to the drum & disk grinding machine( I dont order paint from there!!!!!

Jester
 
#83 ·
Product data sheets

Go on line or ask your paint supllier for the product data sheets peculiar to your paint materials. This will have any and all information you need to get a good paint job. Plus don't do like some newbies and mix products from different manufactures. Stay with one manufacturer for all your paint needs at that time. Primer,base coat, finish.
 
#85 ·
techs-young and old

I don't believe it's the age, I believe it's the attitude. Being involved in the trade as a rep I have had the opportunity to witness many different types of personalities. I once was teaching a relatively new painter how to be more productive and minimize redoing work (never cost effective) and he became a quick study. The shop got busier and they decided to hire an apprentice painter for him. About 2 weeks go by and the owner of the shop called because his new man said he wasn't learning anything and ready to walk. I talked to the painter and he told me he wouldn't teach the new guy anything because "knowledge was power" and he would have a job forever if he kept all of his knowledge to himself. I completely agreed with the painter about knowledge being power but told him that giving his knowledge to someone else was powerful and he had the option of having power or being powerful. The painter thought for a minute and decided being powerful was a better situation. People are people, if it wasn't for the older guys that took the time with me when I was starting out I wouldn't have lasted in this profession. Yes people get set in their ways as time goes by, but, if they respect you, they will listen. I try to live my life with 3 words, Faith, Respect and Trust. I can explain the principal of these words if anybody is interested.
 
#86 ·
Yep, "People are people so why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully".

LOL

When eyes are opened I feel it is a pretty even odds be it young or old if they are bull headed or not. I have a fifty year old guy I work with who has changed with the times and a 45 year old guy who is still in the seventies. Then in the paint shop I have three 25ish year olds one of them won't listen to a thing he is taught while the other two WANT to learn every day and do so.

It's like saying a certain group be it racial or age or sex are the worse drivers. That is the biggest bunch of crap ever. If one opens their eyes they see it VERY even between all "groups". We see what we want to see, it's just human nature, no bad guys or good guys.

Brian
 
#87 ·
two weeks and he's ready to walk? Wow! Out here, to even be a candidate to be taught you must be a damn good prepper and have already done your homework on paint processes, and most likely have at least two years just painting jambs. No one wants to hire unexperienced painters. If that kid really wants to make it he'll have to bite his tongue for a lot longer than two weeks.
 
#88 ·
apprentice

The young apprentice I was telling you about was finishing his second year of apprenticeship and getting ready to move on to his third year (I'm from Canada and we have different levels of apprenticeship, A minimum of 4 years with another minimum of hours per year to qualify as a "licensed technician". I'm sorry I don't know how the American system works). He took this job to be taught more and help advance his career. My fault I should have been more thorough in my explanation of "the apprentice".
 
#89 ·
Here if you are in a union shop there is a four year apprenticeship but out of the union there is NO rules what so ever. A guy can walk into a shop and put quarter panels on or the brakes on your mom's car his first week.:pain:

Brian
 
#90 ·
apprenticeship

Wow, Out here you can do it (but you don't want to get caught), but if your working in a government/ insurance company approved shop you better have licensed techs and people who are on the apprenticeship program. The number of apprentices to techs may vary from province to province.
 
#91 ·
69 widetrack, after reading your response I see the kid's point, and have dealt with that too. It's very frustrating. One thing I noticed about guys who don't want to share their knowledge or are hard headed, is that when they're stuck in that mode for far too long they end up lagging behind the technological changes in terms of newer and better approaches. I've seen a few guys that were clueless on how to address flexible substrates cause when those new industry standards came out they already thought they knew everything. My stance is that if you're gonna have that "I know everything" attitude show us your work or shut up!

It's always best to make aware that you are not perfect, you are willing to learn more, and that the learning never stops.
 
#93 ·
I've done that too, admitingly. I once worked for a guy who wanted to get costs down. The jobs we were doing were turning out good at first, then he wanted to cut corners like crazy. Wanted show flat finishes with no orange peel but only put two coats of clear on it to save money??? :spank: That's just one example. He also had this kid that helped assemble stuff and wanted me to teach him. So I started to teach him and at first I thought it was a cool thing but then I realized this kid didn't value the important stuff and I felt he felt I was being too anal about procedures and what not, at the same time I smoked pot and it made me a little paranoid cause this kid worked for minimum wage and knowing how cheap my boss is I felt unsettled about the whole thing after a few weeks, so I then just focused on telling the boss he just didn't care to listen, which was true, but I could have been more patient with him, and one of the underlying issues for me was insecurity, which was just a byproduct of me knowing I myself still had plenty to learn. So instead of quitting pot I just got really good at a few select things and now I don't feel I have to worry or look over my shoulders. True story. :D
 
#96 ·
Painted Jester

The paint jobber can be your biggest asset or your biggest nightmare. If the people don't understand the paint technology how can they help. It's a good idea to spend at least as much time finding a qualified paint jobber as it is to pick a paint brand. Paint is paint and they are all made to work. Granted, some may have a better primmer or a more forgiving base and a better clear but like i said "paint is paint", it's the people behind the paint that need to be their for you when a problem arises.
 
#99 ·
Wow...this thread has blown up with discussion since the last time I checked it. The "you have received a reply to your thread" e-mails did not come through. I am in a bit of a rush, but wanted to give you all an update.

I reshot the doors this weekend. I did everything the same except for wiping down with wax and grease remover the night before giving the waterborne approx 12 hours to dry. I still tacked right before shooting. I seem to have no adhesion issues and it all turned out good (and matches, luckily for me).

I have one last paint project this fall (my booth is not truly heated) which just so happens to be using the same material as I used on this truck. It will be the first white john deere I have seen in a while. In any case, I am going to do an experiment. I am going to shoot some old metal just like I shot the truck originally with the waterborne. I want to see if it will lift like the truck did. While anyone can do this test, I think I means the most if I do it with the same materials and same methods as I did originally. I will keep you all updated and will post a big response shortly.
 
#100 ·
I like your way of thinking Brad. Glad to hear it came out well and I am glad to see you try to find out what the heck it was that happened. Let me suggest that on one of the test mules exaggerate the issue and TRY to make it fail by REALLY leaving it wet (not wet wet but you get the idea) slather it on primer that was heavily applied and probably still uncured, do that and do it more like you remember. That way you have a real good example of it failing.

Good for you Brad, can't wait to see it.

Brian
 
#101 ·
Huh ??????///

Painted jester,your story reminds me of the time my wife and i took our new Toyota pickup to dinner,when i walked to get the truck,,an IDIOT was checking his girls diamond ring,on the window of my new topper,i kicked him hard in the butt crack,with my pointed toe cowboy boots,that was probably the last time he checked a diamond on someone elses window,ill bet hes still walking lop-sided 22 years later...
 
#102 ·
Great post with lots of good information! No matter what trade you're in, "When you think you know it all, you better get out of the business!" If you want professionals to share their knowledge, a person must have a good attitude. "Attitude is Everything!" Just my 2 cents worth. Scott:D
 
#103 ·
One thing I always do when training a new guy is first show him the hard way and let them struggle for a while.For instance filler work,I'll show them how to mix it and put it on (that can be pretty funny in itself,watching them get it all over thier arms when mixing and all over the floor when applying it) but when they get that part down I'll let them let it harden up and start sanding and sanding and sanding 3-4hrs Then I'll stop by and ask if they want to know an easier way??? They always "oh God yes this is tough work"
then I'll apply some filler wait till it gets tacky and and sand it with a few strokes and a couple minutes later its done....They always say the same thing.....WHY DIDNT YOU SHOW ME THAT WAY FIRST?????? Well,if I showed the easy way you wouldnt know how hard it CAN be and the value of what I'm showing you ,would you???? it took me years to figure this out and you just learned it in a few hours.....The older more experianced guys are a little different I always wait for them to come over and ASK how I do my filler work so fast. Most times though they wont ask they'll just come by and watch while I'm doing it...I learned this trick from a drunk that could make more money in a week than most bodymen mdae in a month....So ,you really can learn something from everybody....
 
#104 ·
I have a few minutes in between epoxy coats, so I will go through the thread addressing anything I skipped the first time.

I use Wypall 05790 towels for wax and grease remover. I attached a picture of them and the box for reference. These are large, white, disposable towels. I used a different model in the past (wypall x60 if my memory is correct), but made the switch to these due to their durability. While the x60 is also lint free, it is fairly thin and rips easy (like a paper towel). These have the consistency of a shop rag: thick and durable. I buy these by the crate now as they also double as shop rags. It is actually cheaper and easier for me to use these disposable rags vs washable ones. Many mechanic shops are going to the disposable rags for this reason. I am still around 70% mechanical to 30% body work.

There is a bit of confusion early in this thread (tech69 and painted jester) regarding my waterborne wax and grease remover. I am still using all solvent based material, including basecoat. I have never shot waterborne base in my life. The waterborne I am referring to is the wax and grease remover, in comparison to solvent based wax and grease which I have used on every job up until this one.

I have never used or needed fish eye eliminator. Despite my less than ideal conditions, I take all of the precautions to ensure everything is clean, including my air lines and compressor inlet. I change air compressors every 5-10 years due to upgrades and service life. When my compressor goes down, everything shuts down. New compressors keep the impacts happy in the shop and the guns oil free in the booth. I am currently running a T30 ingersoll, which I am very happy with. However, I am nearing its capacity. I am currently eyeballing the new 10hp screw type quincy compressors with integrated refrigerated drier. Guess I am ranting a bit, but I love air, especially dry air.

Sabotage isn't likely. It is just me with one part time helper and this is his truck! He doesn't do any of the paint work, just mechanical.

Silicone on the handles is a possibility. While I have never sprayed any (and it doesn't look like any has been done), that is a possibility. Someone could have gotten crazy with it at some point. However, if this was the case, wouldn't the primer have flaked off the original paint instead of the base flaking from the primer? I don't really see this being the cause for this reason.

I am not intentionally ignoring Brian's recommendations on "follow the tech sheets", nor am I trying to be a junior chemist. I follow them to a T outside of the activating the basecoat. I trust Barry's advice on the activator. Before I activate a new basecoat with the SPI clear activator, I have always shot a test panel. It has always turned out great.

When it comes down to it, I am no different than anyone else here. While I do paint about 1-2 cars a year, I paint out of my 2 car detached garage with some box fans and a prayer. I have no training or knowledge outside of waking up one day and think "maybe I could do that". I started researching online and found hotrodders body forum. Reading all of the many posts here, I finally got the nerve to try it. This is my third year painting cars. Next year I am going to build an actual booth and start bodywork for real. I have never painted a car for a profit. All of the ones I have done have been friends or family up to this point. I hope to change that next year and I owe it all to the people here. Shine, DBM, Brian, Barry, crashtech, hell, the list can go on and on. I have been a diesel mechanic and welder for quite a few years now but have always wanted to excel in painting, and that just might happen. While I may not be painting cars all of the time, I do have a contract on industrial machinery (including farm tractors, assembly line equipment, metal fab equipment) starting next year. I am a bit excited as these will all be airbrushed, flakes, pearls, all custom work!

Tech69: There were 3 flies in the booth. All are in the roof :D.

Widetrack comments on flashing could always be a contributor. It was my concern shooting that day considering the colder temperatures and the fact I only had slow reducer. I do not make it a habit of touching the paint in between coats due to skin oils and such, but the base lost its gloss in about 1o minutes and I waiting 30 between coats. I am fairly, but not completely, confident that it had flashed. I painted just the other day at 61 degrees for the basecoat using the same setup as I did here without failure.

I did not use a sealer, and actually, I have never used a sealer. I always prime and block before basing. If I blow through the primer then I always reprime as the body is not ready. I have read that there is an adhesion benefit to sealer, but I don't understand how. Anyone care to explain the benefits of a sealer if the body is already one solid color?

Coming from the mechanical side (and managing new mechanics...), I understand the know-it-all attitude. It doesn't matter the age, it is all in the mentality. We all can't know everything. Just as tech69 does, I smile and nod to stay on their good side for when I could use their help, but don't think much of them otherwise. As time goes on, I need their help less and less, which makes me much happier. Holier than thou attitude doesn't sit well with me. As I slowly become the experienced one at my 9-5 job, I make a special attempt to be extra nice and helpful as I got thrown into the pit of *******s when I first started out, and that doesn't help anyone.

For my 9-5 job (diesel mechanic), there is no set apprenticeship time. You work with a more experienced person until they feel you are ready to go on your own. Then you start with the simplest jobs and slowly work your way up. I had a quite a few years previous experience and was set on my own in 6 months (the minimum time). When I became lead tech and did the training/evaluations myself, it was a true nightmare. I remember one guy in particular. He was twice my age and threw one hell of a fit his first day. He was too good to be in 3rd shift. Then the other employees were out to get him (they were not). When the work was beneath him and he started refusing jobs, we had a real nice clash and a refresher on what it takes to stay employed. The guy completely went off the handle, started threatening everyone on the shift. Called security to escort him out, but before they got there, he informed everyone that he was going to kill me. I got my 3/4 bar out of my toolbox and he took off like a little girl. He never even came back to pick up his toolbox. I didn't get much work done that night. My nerves were shot for the whole week. It doesn't matter what field you are in or how old you are, self-entitled *******s are everywhere.

Hope you all have a good attention span! I will have the test done in a week or so. I am slowing down a bit as I get older.
 

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#109 ·
There is a bit of confusion early in this thread (tech69 and painted jester) regarding my waterborne wax and grease remover. I am still using all solvent based material, including basecoat. I have never shot waterborne base in my life. The waterborne I am referring to is the wax and grease remover, in comparison to solvent based wax and grease which I have used on every job up until this one.


Hope you all have a good attention span! I will have the test done in a week or so. I am slowing down a bit as I get older.
I knew you were using all solvent based materials< Ive never shot water born either LOL And probably never will!!! If I was much younger I would want to learn!!! But with the end of the world coming in Dec. $*^#!@%^&* I Don't Have To!! LOL:D

Wish you the best: Jester:thumbup:
 
#105 ·
WOW...After that rather lengthy response, not only has your epoxy primer flashed, you may want to consider giving it a quick scuff before you top coat it. Just joking.

I must say, after being on this site for only a short time, I see that there is a wealth of knowledge and opinions out there...you gotta love it.

All the best and hope it works out for you.

Ray
 
#106 ·
I started off in computer programming before having a major career switch. When all of the computer jobs started going overseas years back I seen the light at the end of that tunnel. While I was making more money as a programmer (although not that much more, honestly), service jobs can't be shipped to China or India. I do miss that work a little, though I may not have a job now had I stayed. That job market is sketchy to say the least. The more complicated vehicles get the more security this profession has.

I used to be able to type 130wpm. I am down to around 60 now. I spend more time thinking than typing. It doesn't flow like it used to.
 
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