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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-17-2012 10:56 PM
Project89
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
i believe you but wasnt looking for something to run off tables want to use wide band and have it adjust. You are doing table swaping so it kind of fakes it but its not fixing it on the fly. I can do static tables with stock gm ecu. I understand your system works great for you bit i am still leaning toward ms3 and some goodies to go with it. Still should be close to my 1000 price tag.
it does corrections on the fly, real time barro, air temp and coolant temp etc etc and of course wideband feedback...

any ecm u use is going to use tables it has to

my normal recomendation to anyone looking to use a megasquirt is go ms 2 v3.0 since it comes ready for stepper and pwm idle valves, and low-z injectors

ms1 cannot run stepper idle control valves which is the biggest difference the 2.2 board with ms1 wont run low-z injectors without some mods between ms1/2 besdies the actual cpu inside the unit

the ms3 is nice specially with its onboard sd card dataloging and its extra inputs and outputs with the 3x board

on certian engines like say the 3.8 grand national engine or max effort race engines were fueling can vary from cyl to cyl the ms3 is great for ind cyl fuel and spark trims
90-95% of the ppl dont need this option
specially when the ms1/2 is capable of runing the same engine

all the same if i could have iwould have went ms3 on my twin turbo iroc just for the sd datalogging
10-17-2012 09:41 PM
hcompton
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Furgal View Post
why would batch need any more volume than senquental..?
it's not adding 8x the fuel into the engine or it run pig rich.. same fuel amount if it comes out one injector or 4(bank) 8 (batch) or the intake floor would be a pond mighty fast..
Yep if they fire two at a time you just turn the fuel down a little to take up for the fuel vapor getting sucked out of the manifold. For inline four bangers where the other cylinder is 180 out. Its not big deal but for 90 degree v8 bank firing will cause varing fuel levels and will never be perfect. It does work but for v8 usally its best to fire only when the engine needs it. It is used by some manufactures to cool the back of the valve and run higher compression without detenation. Really doesnt matter if running boost they love to run pig rich anyway.
10-17-2012 09:08 PM
ap72
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Furgal View Post
why would batch need any more volume than senquental..?
it's not adding 8x the fuel into the engine or it run pig rich.. same fuel amount if it comes out one injector or 4(bank) 8 (batch) or the intake floor would be a pond mighty fast..
when you run batch your injectors together fire at once releasing pressure from the shared fuel rail, firing injectors in a staged sequential fashion helps to normalize the pressure pulse. The difference is so minute though I can't see it making any difference in pump requirement.
10-17-2012 09:03 PM
ap72
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
i believe you but wasnt looking for something to run off tables want to use wide band and have it adjust. You are doing table swaping so it kind of fakes it but its not fixing it on the fly. I can do static tables with stock gm ecu. I understand your system works great for you bit i am still leaning toward ms3 and some goodies to go with it. Still should be close to my 1000 price tag.
you can't run any system entirely off of wideband, or it will always be lagging behind. You need static tables to give you a good first guess from which your sensor can then adjust the pulse depending on what reading your getting. Under acceleration it'll always be way off, under cruise it'll be close to optimal as you're running a fairly steady cycle.
10-17-2012 09:02 PM
E.Furgal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Project89 View Post
the fuel presure effect is only bad in batch mode if u dont have a fuel pump capable of supplying enough volume. for most ppl who build stuff this isnt an issue.

sequential will slightly extend how much hp a pump is good for and i mean slightly.

batch or seqential if u see fp droping at injector opening u need a bigger pump

in case of milage it really dont make a difference it may lean a cyl ever so slightly, ewere talking about maybe a 2 psi drop on a poorly designed fuel system with batch fire. and fuel presure will recover normally before the next injector firing

if u had this issue with abatch fire system u could calculate how much less fuel is being injected during the presure drop in the rail but 2-3 psi isnt going to make that much of a difference

heres some big power cars running everything from ms1 to ms3
The Cars

the ls1 silverado that makes
1000+ whp and 1050+wtq
is running ms1 with extra code

the hardware is more then capable of what any of us need.
unless ur some top tier racer who needs every last 1/4 hp u can get out of somethign megasquirt will work, and do a great job

i trust my ms1 on my camaro to 8500 rpms controlling fuel ignition and 2 stages of nitrous, along with an antilag system and a traction control system it has never missed a beat. thats a whole lot of calculations it needs to do before every injection and spark event more so then an engine with just seqential injection and ignition
why would batch need any more volume than senquental..?
it's not adding 8x the fuel into the engine or it run pig rich.. same fuel amount if it comes out one injector or 4(bank) 8 (batch) or the intake floor would be a pond mighty fast..
10-17-2012 09:00 PM
ap72
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
Ok so i will just post the damn link.

Jetronic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

K jetronic is based on desil engine style cam driven pump its mechanical. For sure i have rebuilt the unit before. L in your 280 had electrical injectors. Most of the systems dont. Im sure the mechanical K style systems are in your performance out of print book. I know i actually read that book.

You should put a v8 with twin turbos and a powerglide in your 280z then back half the car and install 4 link style shortened 9 inch with big tires. Run it with the ms1. And nos lots of nos!! It may not be what you are looking for but i felt like giving you some unrelated and unwanted advice. Enjoy!

I was not aware of the K-jetronic with the spider arrangement (like a Vortec 4.3L) It may be entirely mechanical, I can't say for sure. The jetronic systems I'm familiar with have injectors.

The 280z is actually just getting a simple T5 302 swap, engine is built to put out about 325whp or so, which is more than I need on the street, and more than I should be running through the T5. I thought about doing a small nitrous shot but I don't want to replace the trans. The whole thing is on hold right now until I get some extra play money though.
10-17-2012 08:51 PM
hcompton
Quote:
Originally Posted by Project89 View Post

i trust my ms1 on my camaro to 8500 rpms controlling fuel ignition and 2 stages of nitrous, along with an antilag system and a traction control system it has never missed a beat. thats a whole lot of calculations it needs to do before every injection and spark event more so then an engine with just seqential injection and ignition
i believe you but wasnt looking for something to run off tables want to use wide band and have it adjust. You are doing table swaping so it kind of fakes it but its not fixing it on the fly. I can do static tables with stock gm ecu. I understand your system works great for you bit i am still leaning toward ms3 and some goodies to go with it. Still should be close to my 1000 price tag.
10-17-2012 08:38 PM
hcompton
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
they are most definitely not mechanical. It is not nearly as advanced as today's EFI systems, but it is electronic fuel injection. It also demonstrates how simple something can be and still be adequate.
Ok so i will just post the damn link.

Jetronic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

K jetronic is based on desil engine style cam driven pump its mechanical. For sure i have rebuilt the unit before. L in your 280 had electrical injectors. Most of the systems dont. Im sure the mechanical K style systems are in your performance out of print book. I know i actually read that book.

You should put a v8 with twin turbos and a powerglide in your 280z then back half the car and install 4 link style shortened 9 inch with big tires. Run it with the ms1. And nos lots of nos!! It may not be what you are looking for but i felt like giving you some unrelated and unwanted advice. Enjoy!
10-17-2012 08:16 PM
ap72
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
My 280 had L jetronic not d but both are rare. K jetronic is the most popular used on many of the german cars. Merc bmw vw porsche. They are mechanical.
they are most definitely not mechanical. It is not nearly as advanced as today's EFI systems, but it is electronic fuel injection. It also demonstrates how simple something can be and still be adequate.
10-17-2012 08:09 PM
Project89
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Furgal View Post
since when has a msIII become a 10000.oo ecu?

then you have the "end user made his own code...."
to a msII thats great for those that have been doing this for a good long while..
I'd not tell a new carb tuner to start drilling air bleeds..
isn't the 70's bosch injection mechanical?
you proved my point.. why I haven't made the jump..
questions on the msII or msIII change somehow to thinking I need a 10000.oo ecu..

ur right u wouldnt tell a new user to write his own code, i was just syaing that cause the ms2 is fully capable of seqential injection but it isnt because of the liscensing of ms3

if ms2 did everything ms3 does without the need for a 100$ addon board would u buy the ms3 no u wouldnt u would buy the cheaper ms2

thats the reason ms2 doesnt do sequential unlles u write ur own code
10-17-2012 08:06 PM
Project89
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
Your math is correct. Now apply it to mpg and tell me how you can loose pressure in the fuel rail blowing fuel out in batch fire and it not effect the mpg.
the fuel presure effect is only bad in batch mode if u dont have a fuel pump capable of supplying enough volume. for most ppl who build stuff this isnt an issue.

sequential will slightly extend how much hp a pump is good for and i mean slightly.

batch or seqential if u see fp droping at injector opening u need a bigger pump

in case of milage it really dont make a difference it may lean a cyl ever so slightly, ewere talking about maybe a 2 psi drop on a poorly designed fuel system with batch fire. and fuel presure will recover normally before the next injector firing

if u had this issue with abatch fire system u could calculate how much less fuel is being injected during the presure drop in the rail but 2-3 psi isnt going to make that much of a difference

heres some big power cars running everything from ms1 to ms3
http://www.diyautotune.com/cars/cars.htm

the ls1 silverado that makes
1000+ whp and 1050+wtq
is running ms1 with extra code

the hardware is more then capable of what any of us need.
unless ur some top tier racer who needs every last 1/4 hp u can get out of somethign megasquirt will work, and do a great job

i trust my ms1 on my camaro to 8500 rpms controlling fuel ignition and 2 stages of nitrous, along with an antilag system and a traction control system it has never missed a beat. thats a whole lot of calculations it needs to do before every injection and spark event more so then an engine with just seqential injection and ignition
10-17-2012 07:56 PM
hcompton My 280 had L jetronic not d but both are rare. K jetronic is the most popular used on many of the german cars. Merc bmw vw porsche. They are mechanical.
10-17-2012 07:25 PM
E.Furgal
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
I don't need to, I had a Jetronic system on my L28 before I switched to MS1, still running the original injectors and coolant sensor. Furthermore I own one of the "how to tune Bosch Jetronic" books no longer in print.
looks like it maybe electronic but not computercontrolled.. as we think of it today

"Analog fuel injection. The 'D' is an abbreviation from German: "Druck", which means pressure. The depression (vacuum) is measured using a pressure sensor located in the intake manifold, in order to calculate the duration of the fuel injection pulses. Originally, this system was just called Jetronic, but the name D-Jetronic was later created as a retronym to distinguish it from the newer versions."
10-17-2012 07:20 PM
E.Furgal
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
Jetronic has mechanical aspects, but its EFI. MS1, MS2, or MS3 will all work for your application. A 500hp sbc is nothing extraordinary to ask from any of the systems.
well, as seen as my engine is a 496 bbc.. that others with same intake/heads/compression/cam are in the 880hp 630+ft lb..
a set up for 500hp might just work as well as a 390 cfm carb
10-17-2012 07:12 PM
ap72
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
You might want to wiki that one real quick.
I don't need to, I had a Jetronic system on my L28 before I switched to MS1, still running the original injectors and coolant sensor. Furthermore I own one of the "how to tune Bosch Jetronic" books no longer in print.
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