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Topic Review (Newest First)
11-11-2012 10:08 AM
1Gary At 65 yrs old I am obligated to tell the complete story asked or not.It is my pay back for yrs of help I received.

I neither have the time or inkling to write a post in Wiki.

My same life's experiences has proven ref articles to fan magazines,especially when it comes to testing, are neither accurate or reliable.

I'll ask you to please not post to me in this fashion given my senior status.

Thanks,

Gary
11-11-2012 03:59 AM
cobalt327
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Gary View Post
Mark,
Too bad the situation of how engines work doesn't fit the question.
Neither does anything about gear ratios or converter stall speeds or any of the other things you complained about having been left out.

I am telling you (yet again) that in this case there's no place to even start, not knowing what the OP wants or knows. But at the same time, YOU do a cut and paste in one post- w/o ANY of your own words or anything remotely explaining things, and then in another post sort of recommend a race intake. And the rest of the time you complain. So if anyone was going to be brought into question about the quality of their posts, it would be you.

But hey- if you think you can do better, then DO IT! Because by what I have seen you don't take your own advice as far as being thorough. How's about this- every thread you post to, give ALL the info on the subject. Not just a cut and paste or a line or two, I mean in your own words, lay it all out. Then do that for EVERY thread you post to. See how long it takes before you realize the smarter thing to do is to let the questions from the OP dictate how much detail you go into (as well as the tone/timbre of the post and your own instincts).

BTW, I have written extensively in the Crankshaft Coalition (CC) so I can link to the articles there to add to the information I post. That's the only practical way I can cover a very large amount of ground in a post w/o writing a book on every thread I post to. So when you see links in my posts, they're almost never to a magazine article (1/2 of 1% maybe? Or less?). Most often the links you see are links to CC articles that I have either written in their entirety, added to, or read and know the info is good.

BTW II, my post count was mentioned in reference to getting a feel for what a poster needs and wants, not as any qualifier or to indicate the efficacy of a poster- me or anyone else. That's why I had my post count zeroed out some time ago. I am totally secure in the quality of what I post, w/o needing a large post count. And between you and me. it's 20,000, not 2,000.

Now, this is the last time I am going to address this. I have spent more time trying to explain things to you than I should have needed. Get a clue: I am not changing ANYTHING about how I post or the info I choose to include. Save your breath and use your time to answer posts or something instead of worrying about what I do.
11-11-2012 03:08 AM
1Gary Mark,
Too bad the situation of how engines work doesn't fit the question.

Mark-I didn't say for him to buy a new L31.What I said was for him to get a good pick and pull and rebuild it himself.

Do honestly think 2,000 posts is a qualifier??. New to this forum only.Gezzz it's got to be I don't know how many yrs I have been on other sites.But here is a lesson for ya.I've seen newbies that are as sharp as a pin and guys with tons of posts that are dumb as a stick.I don't have much faith in post counts and for me I don't pay much attention to mine.

So Mark put yourself in my shoes.Guy X buys a Goodwrench and wants a build up from us.Who do you think he is going to blame if it throws a rod or loses oil pressure??. And who do you think get's to cover those losses in labor to be sure that doesn't happen??.

I promise you the Mexican connection isn't sending me any checks.
11-11-2012 01:25 AM
cobalt327 So, it's "don't do as I do, do as I say".

Last time: In the scope of THIS thread, being as vague as the question was- almost as an afterthought the way it was presented- I will almost never go into any great amount of depth until the OP comes back w/more. And in this case it appears that my instincts was right on target. When you've put up 20,000 posts on this forum like I have, you get a feel for it.

About crate engines:

I'm sure everyone in the market for a replacement engine would like to but a new Vortec engine and be done w/it. But in the REAL world, where guys have car payments, kids in college, mortgages, job layoffs, etc., often compromises must be made.

As far as crate engines from GM being bad, etc. at least they have a warranty that the buyer can hold the feet of the dealer to the fire with. I have never heard of someone w/a legit warranty claim being ripped off, although I'm sure if you google you could find examples. But judging by what I hear about other rebuilders, if I HAD to buy one- I would opt for something from GM before I would go elsewhere. YMMV, and that's OK, too.
11-10-2012 01:03 PM
1Gary That is kind of to the point I have been making.You can't/shouldn't just pick out one part(the heads)of a combo.People do that all the time and the question should be larger than just that.If he wanted just L31 96 to 2000 results,then he should buy that,Vortec heads and all and rebuild it.Engines are a system and just one pc of it isn't sufficient.Compression ratios.cam.well you know what I mean.I think the days(thank god) of stab a cam into a engine and go are long gone.We all know way too much now.
I sure am damm tired of loosing money in labor fixing clearances on Goodwrench crate's since yrs ago GM farmed that out and the QC went to hell in a hand basket.The idea of a crate meaning anything is long gone from anyone.
11-10-2012 08:11 AM
cobalt327
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Gary View Post
Aaaaa yes we have used that intake on a street driven car.Responsive off idle threw-out the rpm range.You wouldn't think so,but cam selection does come into play as apart of the combo.Growth potential is built into it as well.
A "street drive car" can mean anything. More to the point of this thread, remember- the OP asked about using Vortec heads on a GM crate engine, presumably a crate engine that had worse heads than Vortecs (or no heads if a short block), else he wouldn't be asking about Vortec heads in the first place.

That leaves a distinct possibility that the engine will have either a really small cam: .383"/.401" lift and around 200 degrees duration @ 0.050" lift on the 260 hp model, or a crappy cam when mated to a too-low CR, like the 290 hp model sports.

The bottom line is that open plenum raised port race intake on a crate 350 w/Vortec heads and either of the lame cams above would be a total pos. And to lead the OP into believing anything different would be a real disservice to him unless ALL the info pertaining to the intake and its suitability for use in his case is included.
11-09-2012 10:36 AM
cobalt327 You are new here, so I do not expect you to "know" me or my credentials. Suffice to say I have been at this for a VERY long time and I stand by every word I type. While I'm not infallible, I do consider my contributions here to be fully adequate- and judging by all available criteria we have to measure such things, the people responding to my posts seem to agree.

There are always compromises when it comes to how much info to provide, whether it is is not enough or is it too much, or just right? I try to give as much info as I believe is needed, and if more is needed, it will be provided when the OP asks for it. On this thread, the OP thanked me and has asked for no more. If he's satisfied, then my job is done.

You are correct- techinspector1 is great resource and I am glad he's here. There are MANY good contributors- too numerous to mention because if I tried surely I'd miss someone and I wouldn't want to leave anyone out. But they- and we- know who they are.

TI and I are friends. He knows of my work and I of his. I can also say (TI, correct me here if I'm speaking out of turn) we have a mutual respect for each others contributions both here and on the Crankshaft Coalition wiki where we are both admins.

So before you get some skewed view of me or anyone else here, take the time to see what's up and you'll see things MUCH clearer than you could possibly do in the short time you've been here.

You don't have to agree w/me- but you might consider just sticking to addressing the OP and his issues if you really care about the perceived quality of the answers given on this board, instead of taking issue w/me. Because I can assure you, I am not going to be doing anything differently than I have for the time I've been here.

If you want to continue this discussion, PM me- this is way off topic.

Regards, Mark
11-09-2012 09:39 AM
1Gary Cobalt-I consider you as a friend.Question is what have you done and not what you have read and believe.If it is what you have read,the O/P can do that himself.I am trying to get you to change for source of info to reading trade publications to become a life long student of the tech and applying that to your builds.Be able to read between the lines from sources that have a selling agenda.Become a expert in the tech of air/fuel dynamics,cam design,materials and how that impacts parts to name afew.

If you read Techinspector1's posts you see a guy who appreciates big picture builds.Considers that these engines are a system.Knows the tech and how it gets applied.

All these posts in the forums from O/P's involve more than the original question.It serves the O/P to bring those things to his attention because he didn't think of them or maybe didn't know.
11-09-2012 08:48 AM
1Gary Aaaaa yes we have used that intake on a street driven car.Responsive off idle threw-out the rpm range.You wouldn't think so,but cam selection does come into play as apart of the combo.Growth potential is built into it as well.
11-09-2012 07:01 AM
cobalt327 Funny you mentioned comic book bench racing earlier.

The Bow Tie Vortec heads are a good head. But as far as intakes go, the suggested early intake GM p/n 10051103 (shown below) is a raised port competition orientated single plane intake recommended to be used w/a 2" spacer. This style intake is not something you would ordinarily use on a street 350. And in that the OP originally asked about using the Vortec head on a GMPP crate engine having heads inferior to the Vortec heads (otherwise why swap them in the first place?), it can be safely surmised that he's interested in a street combo, IMO

As I indicated above, only raised port style intakes have a tall enough port to be used on a Vortec head. But just because the port is tall enough does not mean the intake will match up correctly to the Vortec intake ports w/o modification to the intake or head, or both. Nor does it mean the design is going to match up to a street application.



A much more suitable intake for a street 350 SBC w/Vortec heads would be the Edelbrock Performer p/n 2116 or the Performer RPM p/n 7116 for the Vortec. Cheaper, too. Even the GM p/n 12366573 would be better than the p/n 10051103, but the price is too high IMO.
11-09-2012 06:33 AM
1Gary As suggested two part numbers for intakes.The overall features make them best buy.
11-09-2012 06:10 AM
cobalt327 Dual pattern intake holes are not very useful. Because of the height of the Vortec intake port, only the single plane 'raised port' race intakes have enough height to actually mate to the Vortec port- but then they may be too wide or have other port fitment issues. The dual plane intakes that I know of do not have enough meat above the port to be ported to match the Vortec port, either, w/o having a vacuum leak or razor thin sealing surfaces above the ports.
11-09-2012 05:40 AM
1Gary These are a good match for a 350/355 SBC.Chevy was pretty liberal in the term Vortec.You see these already have all the machine work done and a dual intake bolt pattern.185cc intake runner is just about right with that cc chamber it is a best buy.

Vortec Bowtie Cylinder Head Technical Notes:

• Cast-iron small runner or large runner cylinder heads*

• 66cc combustion chambers

• 0.450" deck thickness

• Hardened exhaust valve seats

• Machined for 2.000"/1.550" valves

• Maximum 0.530" valve lift (without modifications)

• Straight spark plug design

• No heat risers

• Drilled and tapped for 7/16"-14 screw-in studs

• Dual bolt patterns for Vortec and early style intake manifolds (early

model P/N 10051103; Vortec intakes P/N 12366573,12496820,

12496821, 12496822 or 12489371)

• Use intake gasket P/N 12529094 for Vortec intakes or dual pattern

intake gasket P/N 12497760 for early model intakes or Vortec design

intake manifolds

• Dual bolt patterns for perimeter-style and center-bolt valve covers

• Vortec intake manifold three-step torque specs: 2 lb.-ft.; 9 lb.-ft.; 11 lb.-ft.

B. 25534421

Small Port Vortec Bowtie Cylinder Head Assembly

• Completely assembled, ready to bolt on

• 185cc intake ports

• 65cc exhaust ports

• Use Fel-ProŽ P/N 1470 exhaust ga
11-08-2012 06:06 PM
cobalt327 mertolson, check your PM box.

The Vortec head has some limitations in their stock form. One of the biggest drawbacks is the limited amount of valve lift caused by the height of the valve stem guide boss. Anything over 0.420" lift needs to be checked closely for clearance between the retainer and valve stem seal. More info can be seen at the wiki page Valve train points to check.

There are several ways to address the limited available lift, from the cheap "ghetto grind" to the relatively expensive (but very effective) conversion to beehive valve springs and retainers along w/cutting the guide bosses down shorter and reducing their diameter to allow aftermarket valve stem seals.

The Vortec heads also require center bolt valve covers, a Vortec-specific intake, and either self aligning rocker arms or installing screw in rocker arm studs and guide plates to use non self aligning rockers.

The page Vortec L31 cylinder head has info you might find useful. This barely scratches the surface, so if you have any other questions please feel free to ask.
11-08-2012 05:33 PM
cobalt327 Honestly I do not know why you seem to believe any of the numbers presented in the articles (that are the same numbers from the same articles cited by oldbogie in his post above, BTW) are "comic book bench racing". What I DO know is I'm not going to waste any more time or bandwidth trying to convince you that the numbers there are real world. At least the OP seems to be satisfied, and in the end THAT is why I'm here.
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