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Topic Review (Newest First)
11-22-2012 11:26 PM
MARTINSR Welllllllll did this whole story turn into a friggin disaster!

First off these are the "rivets" the friggin estimating guide refers to as "rear body rivets" and the Mercedes dealer was no better telling me that is exactly what they are. Never did figure out what the real rivet price was, I did get some of the cheaper ones Mercedes had, coated pop rivets for 1.90 each.



I don't know where this riv-nut is used. I have to assume it's for a wire loom to stick onto the stud with a plastic clip. But being the car is gone, I don't know.

So the car is gone you ask, well apparently the customer was under the impression that the shop was a "Mercedes Authorized" shop and it's not. So after I spent about an hour and a half checking in all the parts (three page invoice) I am told that the car was leaving and to not open anything, the shop that got the job will be coming by to pick them up!

The car left on the hook in minutes and that was that. I did meet the parts man over at this other shop (A HUGE shop that recently sold to a large chain of shops in the area) and he is a super nice guy, so it wasn't a total waste for me at least. But the shop sure spent a bunch on this mess!


Brian
11-15-2012 12:49 PM
MARTINSR Apparently Mercedes has a "replacement" rivet that is literally a pop rivet for 1.90 each. Still, well over $400 for the rivets to do this rear body panel.

I don't believe the insurance company can legally own the body shop where they would have their insured cars repaired, at least here in California. I seem to remember something about this in the past where it was put into law, I may be wrong, I was once.

Brian
11-15-2012 11:59 AM
tech69 Martin, I'm not sure but do they make a dura mix type tube of rivet bonding adhesive and perhaps weld bonding adhesive? Or maybe standard size rivets approved for rivet bonding? Not too familiar with doing those repairs but have taken an I car class on it.
11-15-2012 11:48 AM
tech69
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
This is an insurance job so the owner could care less how much those rivets cost. The repair is at over $18,000 right now on a $55k car. There is a very good chance we are going to be using a 100 of those $17 rivets!

This is the odd thing with the insurance companies out there right now, they are walking a thin line between doing things exactly as the manufacturer says and wanting us to do jack crap work and use jack crap parts to save them money, its' a VERY thin line they are walking.

On one side they have seen the insides of a court room over using sub standard parts, or seen other insurance companies (one lost a hundred million dollar suit). All the while there are lobbyist and consumer action groups fighting for the "consumers" use of these cheaper parts instead of the auto manufacturer holding them hostage with their high prices.

While all this is happening the manufacturers are adding more and more verbiage to their guidelines that state things like a frame can't be repaired it must be replaced to all the components in an air bag system need to be replaced in a deployment to no used or aftermarket parts because their integrity could compromise the cars safety features designed into it.

We are replacing parts such as a quarter panel or other weld on components just as the manufacture says so. Something we once would have done like sectioning a frame rail on a car may now be prohibited by the manufacturers guidelines and the car is deemed a total loss because of this. Where we would have repaired it two years ago using general repair guidelines set forth by someone like ICAR I-CAR - Collision Repair Training which is a recognized leader in proper repair training the manufacturer is now getting the trump card and when they say "do not cut or splice" a frame rail, we can't or the insurance company will be liable along with us. So they say go by the manufacturers guidelines and the car is a total loss because replacing the entire frame rail requires a lot more labor, including removal and reinstalling the motor.

And ICAR has changed too, you go to a class today and you will hear over and over and over "Refer to the manufacturers guidelines". I am not kidding, they are hardly teaching a thing because they will say this over and over as if what they are teaching isn't even right and you have wasted your time. I have a study manual right here in my computer hutch from an ICAR class on advanced systems like air bag and ABS and I wrote in the book every time the guy said "Refer to the manufacturers guidelines" and this statement is written on just about every page in that manual!

I see it all the time, we have a Chrysler Pacifica in the shop right now with very localized frame damage we are talking 1" of the end of the frame rail is collapsed and it may total this perfectly good car.

Things have gotten very odd, the AM parts industry has sold the insurance industry a sock of poop and they bought it hook line and sinker. There are AM parts made for your late model car that would blow you away. How would you like your insurance company saying you had to use an aftermarket radiator support in your 1 year old car? A radiator support made in China on your car that you are making payments on? I don't think so, not when you can see very clearly that the part is sub standard. The other day I got an AM bumper in for a GMC Jimmy that was much lighter, I weighed it against the OEM bumper, AM was 10.5 lbs and the OEM was 16! I don't want this kind of crap on my cars, but the insurance industry has bought the AM industries lies that they are the same! They are EXACT, no kidding. It is up to the shop to trial fit and weed out the junk. So the insurance company says USE IT, but then out of the side of their mouth they say "But we want you to repair the car properly so it's up to you to tell us if this part is substandard, if it is then buy an OEM one because we are just like that, we are a wonderful insurance company of the highest integrity and we would never want you to use a part that put our insured in danger or damaged the value of their car"
But at the same time they BEAT US UP over our AM numbers being down. They MAKE US (we are talking companies we have a contract with for "direct repair") buy and trial fit parts we KNOW aren't going to work.

Oh there you go, you got me started on the insurance industry and AM parts!

Brian
you're so right and they'll punish the shop and tech if he's not in line by taking their sweet time to authorize stuff or get the ball rolling so to speak. I even saw this where the adjuster had his own desk/office in the shop. It's like they'll hide and avoid you as your stall is occupied with a car you want to get started on. They do that to customers to if they decide to take their car to a dealership as opposed to the drp. As you said, most shops that have good management as yours knows what AM parts are junk and which ones aren't, but as you say insurance companies often insist you trial fit it first when you already know it's junk. This is the case with the newer ford mustang rear bumpers or Honda fenders that never fit right with the corner of the headlight, or as you said bumpers/ brackets that are waay thinner and lighter than OEM. What's their argument on that??? It will dissipate more inertia upon impact as it crumples?
As far as fitment issues that the shop has to deal with when using AM parts that's time and costs absorbed by the shop, but in all honesty, not nearly as bad as AM parts for hot rods.

I think down the line The insurance companies will own the majority of DRP shops and it won't be announced. They want every penny they can get.
11-15-2012 08:23 AM
malc Very interesting read.
11-15-2012 08:20 AM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by malc View Post
You will discus it with the vehicles owner wonīt you, and use cheaper rivets ?
This is an insurance job so the owner could care less how much those rivets cost. The repair is at over $18,000 right now on a $55k car. There is a very good chance we are going to be using a 100 of those $17 rivets!

This is the odd thing with the insurance companies out there right now, they are walking a thin line between doing things exactly as the manufacturer says and wanting us to do jack crap work and use jack crap parts to save them money, its' a VERY thin line they are walking.

On one side they have seen the insides of a court room over using sub standard parts, or seen other insurance companies (one lost a hundred million dollar suit). All the while there are lobbyist and consumer action groups fighting for the "consumers" use of these cheaper parts instead of the auto manufacturer holding them hostage with their high prices.

While all this is happening the manufacturers are adding more and more verbiage to their guidelines that state things like a frame can't be repaired it must be replaced to all the components in an air bag system need to be replaced in a deployment to no used or aftermarket parts because their integrity could compromise the cars safety features designed into it.

We are replacing parts such as a quarter panel or other weld on components just as the manufacture says so. Something we once would have done like sectioning a frame rail on a car may now be prohibited by the manufacturers guidelines and the car is deemed a total loss because of this. Where we would have repaired it two years ago using general repair guidelines set forth by someone like ICAR I-CAR - Collision Repair Training which is a recognized leader in proper repair training the manufacturer is now getting the trump card and when they say "do not cut or splice" a frame rail, we can't or the insurance company will be liable along with us. So they say go by the manufacturers guidelines and the car is a total loss because replacing the entire frame rail requires a lot more labor, including removal and reinstalling the motor.

And ICAR has changed too, you go to a class today and you will hear over and over and over "Refer to the manufacturers guidelines". I am not kidding, they are hardly teaching a thing because they will say this over and over as if what they are teaching isn't even right and you have wasted your time. I have a study manual right here in my computer hutch from an ICAR class on advanced systems like air bag and ABS and I wrote in the book every time the guy said "Refer to the manufacturers guidelines" and this statement is written on just about every page in that manual!

I see it all the time, we have a Chrysler Pacifica in the shop right now with very localized frame damage we are talking 1" of the end of the frame rail is collapsed and it may total this perfectly good car.

Things have gotten very odd, the AM parts industry has sold the insurance industry a sock of poop and they bought it hook line and sinker. There are AM parts made for your late model car that would blow you away. How would you like your insurance company saying you had to use an aftermarket radiator support in your 1 year old car? A radiator support made in China on your car that you are making payments on? I don't think so, not when you can see very clearly that the part is sub standard. The other day I got an AM bumper in for a GMC Jimmy that was much lighter, I weighed it against the OEM bumper, AM was 10.5 lbs and the OEM was 16! I don't want this kind of crap on my cars, but the insurance industry has bought the AM industries lies that they are the same! They are EXACT, no kidding. It is up to the shop to trial fit and weed out the junk. So the insurance company says USE IT, but then out of the side of their mouth they say "But we want you to repair the car properly so it's up to you to tell us if this part is substandard, if it is then buy an OEM one because we are just like that, we are a wonderful insurance company of the highest integrity and we would never want you to use a part that put our insured in danger or damaged the value of their car"
But at the same time they BEAT US UP over our AM numbers being down. They MAKE US (we are talking companies we have a contract with for "direct repair") buy and trial fit parts we KNOW aren't going to work.

Oh there you go, you got me started on the insurance industry and AM parts!

Brian
11-14-2012 11:54 PM
malc You will discus it with the vehicles owner wonīt you, and use cheaper rivets ?
11-14-2012 11:51 PM
silentpoet Does that price include lube?
11-14-2012 03:27 PM
454 Rattler Let's see now:

1. buy it used

2. drive it till it drops

3. dump it !!

Now, that's the answer.


454 RATTLER
11-14-2012 02:29 PM
malc 0.95 for the rivet 17,00 because itīs Mercedes.
I had a loner Mercedes years ago when my car went in for crash damage repair, hated it, no room for my feet on the pedals.
The trans tunnel to kick panel width was soooo small.
11-14-2012 12:04 PM
MARTINSR
I believe I had the obscene parts price of the year!

Obscene parts price of the year! How about this 09 Mercedes S550 rear body panel rivets. The rear body components on the car are aluminum, the frame members and outer quarter panels are steel. So to mate the two together they are glued and riveted. The glue is about $500, ok, that is pretty nuts being we get cartridges of a VERY similar (probably exactly the same) product for about $50. But ok, then it comes to the rivets, folks there are about 100 of these rivets used to install the rear body panel which we will be doing on this car. The cost of the rivets (they are about a 1/4 inch by 1/4 inch long) are $17.95 EACH!



Brian

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