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Topic Review (Newest First)
11-17-2012 11:39 AM
gearheadslife
Quote:
Originally Posted by CNC BLOCKS NE View Post
Its intersting the seal on the piston box is not even broken but! So how did they get the pistons out of the box with out breaking the seal??

Do a search on problems with prebalanced assemblies

my pistons where in a srp box and not sealed, unless you call the box wings that keep it closed..
the bearings had my name on the back side.. the rings.. numbered to a piston and pistons numbered.. and rods in box and each rod in plastic(think vacuum sealed food.. with the big and small weight and how much taken off and my name..
it's been checked it's +/- .05 gram.. it's fine..
11-17-2012 09:14 AM
cdminter59
BALANCED rotating assembly

Last December when I was checking out 496 rotating assemblies I went to CNC Motorsports website. There were so many kits to chose from. I wanted a forged crank, forged pistons, and H Beam rods. They had Eagle, Scat, and Callies kits. Then you have categories such as Budget, Claimer, Competition, Performance, and Pro Series. I had decided on Keith Black Icon Performance Pistons before I decided to buy a rotating assembly. I finally came upon the CNC pro series kit that had a forged Eagle crank, 3D H Beam rods, and Speed Pro Pistons. So I got on the phone and called sales and asked if I could substitute IC789 pistons instead od the Speed Pros. His answer was they could make up a kit as long as they carried the brand parts I wanted. So I ended up ordering a CNC Pro Series assembly internal balanced by them (not by Eagle). I have my balance sheet they sent with it. BTW the balance sheet has a 0 by crank snout and the weights of all the parts.
11-17-2012 07:25 AM
cobalt327
Quote:
Originally Posted by 377MONTE View Post
I am looking into a few of the different balanced rotating assemblies available for a 377/383 stroker build. need some help here..

Eagle sells a BALANCED external balance 383 rotating assembly that comes with a new flexplate and harmonic dampener. Will this pre-balanced kit be good enough to drop into the block and bolt up, or will i need to have my local machine shop check their work and rebalance it???
What you want to find out is whether the balance was STATIC (weight matched) or DYNAMIC (spun w/bobweights).

If the assembly was spun balanced there should be a balance sheet accompanying the assembly showing the weights, etc. If there is none, assume it was statically balanced.

That said, prebalanced kits from Eagle- regardless of the method- should be spun balanced by a reputable shop IMO. Double that if there's no balance sheet. There's a chance the vendor might do dynamic balancing of the Eagle kits, but you'd have paid for this. You might want to read what Eagle themselves has to say: http://www.eaglerod.com/index.php?op...d=28&Itemid=25
11-17-2012 07:20 AM
hcompton Ok so hopefully no body from eagle is listening but. I open the kit and weigh all the parts if something is off i send it back. Either as out of spec or damaged in shipping until they send me the right part.

Usally a quick trip to the scale and flat surface and either its ready to run or ready to go back.

Just like every other company in the world eagle has employees that are lazy and some that have no concern about what goes out. But they do care and will try to get you the right parts. Key here is finding the problem before its got 10k miles on it. Got to know if you are going to have an issue before the kit is installed.

Maybe someone that does balancing can help with some type of at home test to tell if the kit is installable. You know if someone send you the wrong alternator because it does not fit. But if they sent you a 60 amp and you ordered an 80 how would you tell if its the same bolt pattern and style. Same thing with stroker kit.

I have a few simple test i do but im sure someone would say its not enough to be sure its right. But all i do is compare the balancer and flexplate to the ones i have in the garage. i check the weight of all the pistons and rods against what is on the spec sheet to make sure they are labled and correct as per spec. Check the rods for straightness and bearing size. I also take several minutes to review each part and make sure it has all its finish machine work and has actually been cut to spec. Crank ahould be smooth and chambferred on the edges. Usally with in a few minutes you can go over the kit and see if its put togther by monkeys or an engine that kit that is ready to run.
11-17-2012 06:54 AM
CNC BLOCKS NE
Quote:
Originally Posted by gearheadslife View Post
funny mine was sealed but the pistons where marked with weight and my last name, same with the rods,, sealed in plastic but they had the weight and my last name on the rod in marker, hum how did they mark the rods, maybe just maybe the seal the parts so they don't rust on the shelf..
HMMMMMMM Just in case you missed this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemeth View Post
Hey 377 .... Just pay the 180 bucks and have it balanced It is not worth the risk!!!!! My Eagle crank was off and came with the wrong balancer so off to the balance guy it went.He had to remove some from the crank and the flex plate....I learned some things you cant cheese out on.....Balance it!!!!!!
11-17-2012 06:51 AM
CNC BLOCKS NE
Quote:
Originally Posted by gearheadslife View Post
funny mine was sealed but the pistons where marked with weight and my last name, same with the rods,, sealed in plastic but they had the weight and my last name on the rod in marker, hum how did they mark the rods, maybe just maybe the seal the parts so they don't rust on the shelf..
Its intersting the seal on the piston box is not even broken but! So how did they get the pistons out of the box with out breaking the seal??

Do a search on problems with prebalanced assemblies
11-16-2012 08:03 PM
Nemeth
Crank balance

Save a few bucks now cuttin corners and in the long run it will cut deep in your wallet!!!!!!!!!!
11-16-2012 07:59 PM
Nemeth
Balancing

Hey 377 .... Just pay the 180 bucks and have it balanced It is not worth the risk!!!!! My Eagle crank was off and came with the wrong balancer so off to the balance guy it went.He had to remove some from the crank and the flex plate....I learned some things you cant cheese out on.....Balance it!!!!!!
11-16-2012 06:33 PM
gearheadslife
Quote:
Originally Posted by CNC BLOCKS NE View Post
I have seen one of there prebalanced kits and one end of the crank was off 36 grams.

Whats really interesting when you buy a prebalanced kit the pistons are in a sealed box the ring are in a sealed box and rods are still in the plastic sealed wraping HMMMMMMMMM
funny mine was sealed but the pistons where marked with weight and my last name, same with the rods,, sealed in plastic but they had the weight and my last name on the rod in marker, hum how did they mark the rods, maybe just maybe the seal the parts so they don't rust on the shelf..
11-16-2012 05:13 PM
oldbogie
Quote:
Originally Posted by 377MONTE View Post
I am looking into a few of the different balanced rotating assemblies available for a 377/383 stroker build. need some help here..

Eagle sells a BALANCED external balance 383 rotating assembly that comes with a new flexplate and harmonic dampener. Will this pre-balanced kit be good enough to drop into the block and bolt up, or will i need to have my local machine shop check their work and rebalance it???
Sometimes Yes and sometimes No. We had them both ways and when they aren't right it's a costly fix as the engine has to be torn down, cleaned, the rotating parts sent to a balance shop or worse returned to the source which often became an argument over what was or not done to the parts. So we stopped using kits a looong time ago. They may be convient for engine assemblers but not what an engine builder needs. When you build an engine you check and inspect each part and the assemblies they make. Often, especially with strokers you find adjustments need to be made for fit checking purposes. This is not to mention that some balancers just think that getting the whole thing kind of close is good enough where I want specific balances in particular places along the crankshaft.

So we buy only pieces and build the combinations. This also gives me a chance to select the exact combination of parts from various manufacturers and sources that I prefer and trust or want to experiment with. Balance is one of the last operations we do, however, the engine will be assembled and checked for timing between cam and crank and clearances of bearings and parts at least once for a standard build and several times for custom/competition builds even when using common off the shelf parts as often you get unpleasant dimensional surprises that are a lot easier to deal with before fire is put in the cylinders. Balance quality will vary between street and competition builds with that varience is cost. There is little sense in putting the effort (thus cost) into a mild performance street build up as goes into a high level competition engine and the type of balance between simple straight up versus games with under or over balance as this gets esoteric and costly and is not necessary for engines that don't see RPMs in the 6000 up range. That's not to say that a hot street engine isn't balanced well and correctly but I'll accept a bit wider tolerance in the intrest of cost. That is unless the customer wants it to the knats and is willing to pay for it even if it will never be used nor felt, if the customer want to spend money on an overbuild I'm willing to take it and we have several that do just that.

So the summary is that prebalanced kits may or not be correct and may or not be correctly done. Then there is aways the issue that assembly may require changes that upset the balance requiring it be done again. Lastly, if the balance isn't correct it takes engine removal and disassembly to correct which is a lot of effort and cost that is most likely not going to be covered by the manufacturer or seller.

Bogie
11-16-2012 04:36 PM
vinniekq2 what cnc just posted
side note,I bought a set of carillo rods for my LS-7 and they were sealed when I got them. They were perfect when the box was opened at the machine shop. They even commented they had never seen perfect rods before
11-16-2012 03:16 PM
CNC BLOCKS NE
Quote:
Originally Posted by 377MONTE View Post
i just got off the phone with Eagle, and their techincian Tim assured me that the BALANCED 383 kits like they sell on summit or jegs are already balanced +/- 2 grams. He said they undergo the same balance job as their race balanced rotating assemblies and i would be able to open the box and install. (after making clearances on the rods and block of course)
I have seen one of there prebalanced kits and one end of the crank was off 36 grams.

Whats really interesting when you buy a prebalanced kit the pistons are in a sealed box the ring are in a sealed box and rods are still in the plastic sealed wraping HMMMMMMMMM
11-16-2012 03:12 PM
CNC BLOCKS NE
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
FWIW, I have swapped pistons to something MUCH heavier and ran the engine without balancing. And many others run race engines that way too. I'm not saying balancing isn't a good thing to do, but I've ran engines just fine without it.

The other issue is that when balancing there is actually only a very small window in which any balance job is perfectly dynamically balanced. Something I wonder about when you see race engines going to anywhere 48-55% balance when 50% is believed by many to be the absolute perfect number for a V8.
Engines like cup enignes that spin over 8000 RPM alot of those cranks are over balanced. The blower engines I build I over balance be 2% as they spin 9500 and no problems.

Machined a block for a customer and the pistons were appox. 72 grams lighter and they said it would be fine. Now that they have runn the engine they are going to take back apart and balance the rotator like I said needed to be done.
11-16-2012 01:57 PM
junior stocker I think they are about as accurate as a "factory balanced" engine is. It's pretty close, but can be greatly improved on. Here's my story: Many years ago I bought a "balanced kit" to build a 334 CID engine using a 305 block and a cut down 400 crank. Turned out the 305 block I had, the main bearings had spun badly, and it was junk. So, I just hung onto the kit until a good 305 block was given to me years latter. After it was together, and in the truck, something was'nt right. It would idle fine, but start to drive, it was like it was pulling a battleship, and had a "dull" feeling to it. I actually parked the truck for several years rather than mess with it anymore. Then one day, in a magazine, I saw a layout of several Chevrolet flywheels and flexplates. WHAT??? That can't be right. Took off the converter shield and.............FOUR-FIFTY-FOUR flexplate!!! Swapped to a 400 flexplate, and it's been smooth sailing since. California Discount Warehouse must only balance their engines to "known, general specs", without balancing them WITH the dampener and flexplate on the rotating assembly, and put a 454 flexplate in the box. My truck had sat for six years, and I had the kit stored for probaly another six before that, so forget about any kind of warranty or compensation. Now I take MY PARTS to MY MACHINIST, because the others obviously can't be trusted. Butch/junior stocker.
11-16-2012 01:14 PM
ap72 FWIW, I have swapped pistons to something MUCH heavier and ran the engine without balancing. And many others run race engines that way too. I'm not saying balancing isn't a good thing to do, but I've ran engines just fine without it.

The other issue is that when balancing there is actually only a very small window in which any balance job is perfectly dynamically balanced. Something I wonder about when you see race engines going to anywhere 48-55% balance when 50% is believed by many to be the absolute perfect number for a V8.
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