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Topic Review (Newest First)
11-28-2012 01:00 PM
69 widetrack Just to clarify several points...For primer I use a 1.6 tip and....mismatched paint is when the jobber mixes base coat for a customer and they make a mistake, like over pour on one or two toners to make a color, the color won't match and renders it useless. They either sell it really cheap as a ground coat or end up throwing it out.

I should have mentioned these things in my first post but didn't so thought I would explain.

Ray
11-28-2012 11:54 AM
69 widetrack And Thank you "dirtyfingers", The formula number I gave you for an orange mid coat is pretty much universal for orange mid coat in PPG and would work in your situation...You are correct and I've said it before on this site, "life is the easiest thing we go through, only people get in the way". To many people don't care enough to listen, learn and just give rat's you what to go just a little up and above what's required of them. That's the difference between a caring jobber and one that just wants your cash.

Price is not always an indicator of quality, but, if you compare PPG's Deltron to Omni, there is a big difference in price and quality. I've had discussions with several paint manufacturer's management people regarding cost of there "higher quality" paint and have been told that people are paying for advertising (Jeff Gordon and Dupont), expensive gifts to major body shops under contract (I know several in my area) and warrenty. So is automotive paint over priced by major and the big manufacturer? The simple answer is yes, but they also do have quality products today in comparison to a few years ago.

What kind of primer and gun are you using? Generally a 1.8 tip is plenty big enough for automotive primer and I prefer a smaller tip for better atomization which results in a more even and flatter finish. Please excuse me for saying this but 1.8 tip is just a bit of a garden hose and your more pouring the product on as apposed to spraying it on.

Don't know if I'd spray a gun or two of the base coat your putting on your car to get it right, your call and I appreciate you wanting to get it right, but that's lots of money for learning. If you buy your paint at the PPG jobber, tell him to throw in a quart of mis-matched base coat...should be free for what your spending and practice with that.

Hope this answers your questions for now, if you need any more information I will try and help.

Best to You
Ray
11-28-2012 11:19 AM
dirtyfingers
paint

Well , Widetrack, I finally am getting some where. Thanks for the info on DBC 500. Thats all I wanted the paint store to tell me. After that info I googled and am finaly getting some answers. Don't get me wrong,im still going to use PPG products, but I think that there are people in every field that just go to work and punch a clock. As far as, I might have to pay more for quality, Im 65 years old and figured that out. I am not going to sink $$$ into this project and put cheep paint on it. I admit I am ignorant[a fact of not knowing], about painting, but im not stuped,[Knowing and not doing].As far as testing on panels first , I probebly will shoot a gun or two just to get it right. But I do have another question. Have a devilbiss and the 18 tip shoots 2K primer but should I go a 2 so it will flow better or reduce it to keep atomizing better?And thank's for all the post's, I will continue to reed them and learn.
11-27-2012 01:09 PM
BarryK [QUOTE=69 widetrack;1616290]Good Post BarryK...Paint is Paint..
----------------------------------------------------------------
LOL, not really sure that would come out of my mouth! BWK

---------------------------------------------------------------
The OP mentioned he went to PPG and got no where...that's one jobber for PPG not all of them, that's why I listed part number's for PPG.
------------------------------------------------------------
Yes that is a problem as I do know not all PPG, BASF and Matrix jobbers carry the special color line mixes.
Feed back I have gotten, is the BASF and Matrix seems to have the colors dialed in the best and the best cost. BWK
11-27-2012 07:29 AM
OneMoreTime For the OP I think it would be time and money well spent to do some test panels like on a scrap hood or fender to see how things work before painting the car..Once you are satisfied with the results and have an understanding then you are good to go..

Sam
11-27-2012 07:27 AM
69 widetrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK View Post
The bottom line is, if you want to paint that color, it is no big deal other then how thick your wallet is.
BUT all all the guessing in the world and playing on a computer is going to do nothing for you but cause you to spend money, you don't need to and end up with the wrong color when done.
IF you want this color, go to House of Color and buy there color chip book, last one I bought was 10 or so years ago and I think it was $50 dollars, so even if it is a $100 now, it will be money well spent as it will show that color and the slight changes made by using different color undercoats.
Now you know exactly what colors you want and then you can go to a Basf, PPG or a Matrix jobber that has their company "custom color mixing system" in stock and with the numbers you have they can mix it exact.

Now you can shop the colors with codes in hand and I can see where a color like this it could mean a $500-800 saving.
This does not have to be as complicated as it is being made out to be, as this is actually done everyday in bodyshops around the world.
Good Post BarryK...Paint is Paint...they all work, HOK does mostly specialty colors, all major manufacturerers have specialty colors with chip books that out line and have formulas for the colors they have...Check with your Jobbers and find the one that's going to help you the most.

The OP mentioned he went to PPG and got no where...that's one jobber for PPG not all of them, that's why I listed part number's for PPG.

Some colors are made to order or custom made by either a paint shop or a jobber, if that's what he wants, the wallet needs to get deeper to pay for building custom colors and spray out panels of custom colors to get exactly what he wants.

My PPG chip books cost $75.00 three years ago, so Barry, I'm sure your close.

I tried to explain the process and arm the OP with enough information to assist him when he went to his jobber for help.

Thanks
Ray
11-27-2012 05:59 AM
BarryK The bottom line is, if you want to paint that color, it is no big deal other then how thick your wallet is.
BUT all all the guessing in the world and playing on a computer is going to do nothing for you but cause you to spend money, you don't need to and end up with the wrong color when done.
IF you want this color, go to House of Color and buy there color chip book, last one I bought was 10 or so years ago and I think it was $50 dollars, so even if it is a $100 now, it will be money well spent as it will show that color and the slight changes made by using different color undercoats.
Now you know exactly what colors you want and then you can go to a Basf, PPG or a Matrix jobber that has their company "custom color mixing system" in stock and with the numbers you have they can mix it exact.

Now you can shop the colors with codes in hand and I can see where a color like this it could mean a $500-800 saving.
This does not have to be as complicated as it is being made out to be, as this is actually done everyday in bodyshops around the world.
11-26-2012 03:42 PM
69 widetrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtyfingers View Post
I was cooking strudel,my 15 year old was on my computer all day, but finaly got to read this stuff,thanks for all the help. Im getting closer to my answer. I think I was on the wrong track. I was told that to get the results like what was painted on the willys,[picture], I would have to start with a black basecoat then paint my midcoat over that. A few coats and you would hardly see the midcoat maby only in bright sun.Add more coats and you would see it in less ligth,the highlights that is. I want a mostly black paint job,[ black candy base coat], with a mid coat that will give me the look like the willys in picture. Now this is where it gets tricky.In stead of brandywine, what I think is in his mid coat, I want to use a orange like manerin orange that h.o.k puts out. My problem is very simple but because of my lack of knowleg, need to know the steps. Do I use the consitrate and add it to clear,do I add somthing to make it flash quicker,or do I buy the mid coat already mixed and what's in the mix. I know someone painted that car, but I cant locate him, and even if I did it might be his secret.
I don't believe you where on the wrong track at all. Your PPG jobber should be able to make this for you. The Willy's does look like a black base coat with a transparent red over top...and yes the more transparent red you put over top of the black, the more visible it is, even when not in the sun. If you want orange, they have orange.

You would begin by painting the car with straight black PPG Deltron 2000, your mid coat would be a clear carrier...the part number is DBC 500. To the DBC 500 (which is a transparent base coat using the regular DT reducer line) you would add a dye (what ever color you want, PPG makes many colors of Dye)...I grabbed the closest one I saw in my mixing room, turns out it's a blue dye, part number DMX 216...that's blue, not orange or red, they are different part numbers. Generally 2 to 3 coats of the mid coat is all you would need to get the effect your looking for...high points red or orange, your choice, in sun and black in the shade. After your mid coat, apply as many coats of clear that it takes to make you happy.

If the jobber doesn't know about this, tell him that the PPG computer program that he has can teach him, the program has formulas for this. If you want Orange use this PPG mixing number 908326/2 That is the PPG formula for an Orange mid coat. These should be readily available at any PPG jobber as well as color chips...part number for the Vibrance Collection binder with color chips is DOX 600.

I hope this is the information you where looking for...If I have a Vibrance collection binder so should your jobber. There are many more colors available than just what there is in this binder...there are also two Vibrance/Radiance fan of chips available as well...both mine are out on lone right now to one of my customers or I would give you those part #'s as well.

Best to You
Ray
11-26-2012 09:14 AM
dirtyfingers It's only a picture I used to try to get some info, but I was told the color was brandywine shot over ? base
11-26-2012 08:10 AM
charlie chop top Love the color on that Willys, mind telling me what it is and I will shoot my 40 Ford that color. I'm in R.I. so I dont think anyone will say I copied you. Thanks,Charlie.
11-22-2012 07:19 AM
MARTINSR I was just giving an overview of a three stage straight up uses of todays HOK stuff I am lost, haven't done it in years.
I'm sorry I jumped in here when I don't have a clue what HOK has these days. Hopefully Barry will chime in with some good info being you aren't going to get anything from me but the basics from a hundred years ago.

Here is a custom paint forum.Custom Paint Forum

In my area there is a great custom paint store that would have all the answers, maybe there is something in your area?

Brian
11-21-2012 11:28 PM
dirtyfingers
paint

I was cooking strudel,my 15 year old was on my computer all day, but finaly got to read this stuff,thanks for all the help. Im getting closer to my answer. I think I was on the wrong track. I was told that to get the results like what was painted on the willys,[picture], I would have to start with a black basecoat then paint my midcoat over that. A few coats and you would hardly see the midcoat maby only in bright sun.Add more coats and you would see it in less ligth,the highlights that is. I want a mostly black paint job,[ black candy base coat], with a mid coat that will give me the look like the willys in picture. Now this is where it gets tricky.In stead of brandywine, what I think is in his mid coat, I want to use a orange like manerin orange that h.o.k puts out. My problem is very simple but because of my lack of knowleg, need to know the steps. Do I use the consitrate and add it to clear,do I add somthing to make it flash quicker,or do I buy the mid coat already mixed and what's in the mix. I know someone painted that car, but I cant locate him, and even if I did it might be his secret.
11-21-2012 08:51 AM
MARTINSR I think this is what the original poster is after, what is the "mid coat" in a candy paint job.

The "colorless basecoat" of today isn't what he is after I don't think, we will wait until he comes back.

I know that matching that pearl and candy three stage (again, only did it a few times) wasn't that big of a deal IF you knew what the actual color was in the original. Doing a let down panel is all you need as the amount of coats applied provide the "Variants" and you pick the proper one. If you had a little more or less pearl or candy in the clear the let down panel lets you sort that out.When you don't know, that is a whole different story. I have sanded off the pearl to the base and cleared it then matched that base color, then matched the pearl with a let down panel.



The true candy paint job you paint the base coat, typically a gold or silver, then spray the "mid coat" candy which is a tinted clear, it's transparent like a tinted window. You apply that over the base in as many coats as you want to provide the color you are after. You then apply a clear clear over that to protect it.

On a pearl, you apply the base coat which there is no typical color, any color you want and everything in the world has been done at one time or another. You then apply a "tinted" clear over that which is a clear with pearl it with the amount of coats you want to achieve the color you are after,then clear clear over that.

A "colorless basecoat" is the way to do this today with modern basecoat clear coat systems, but years ago it was a regular clear. I don't know but HOK may still do it that way, again, I am NO custom painter by any stretch of the imagination but that gets you a little more basic info. House of Kolor- the Official Site for House of Kolor Custom Finishes

Brian
11-21-2012 08:38 AM
BarryK
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
I am certainly no custom painter but back when I did do a few candies and pearls the midcoat WAS the same clear at the final clear. You added pearl or candy to that clear, applied it over the base color then the clear was sprayed over that.

Is it not done like that at all anymore?

Brian
Sure, it is done everyday but a lot depends on what you are trying to accomplish and must remember using the regular clear can cause problems matching down the road even if you keep a record of grams added.
Last car I did that way using a homemade pearl set up was on a new black vett.
Gray scuffed the factory paint, added three different pearls to the clear, shot two coats and then went to three coats of just clear.
Like I told the guy who was a good friend of mine, there is no such thing as ever matching this car if you damage the door.
11-21-2012 08:05 AM
MARTINSR I am certainly no custom painter but back when I did do a few candies and pearls the midcoat WAS the same clear at the final clear. You added pearl or candy to that clear, applied it over the base color then the clear was sprayed over that.

Is it not done like that at all anymore?

Brian
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