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Topic Review (Newest First)
12-29-2012 08:32 AM
vinniekq2 I remember when I was in school,there were two kinds of arguments
Number 1 argument : which one is better Chevy or Ford ( dodge was sometimes mentioned)
Number 2 argument was a sub argument and it wasnt really an argument,at the time it was a fact: The 307 is a complete pile of crap and the 327 was the engine to have at any cost

most of us had 283s and big blocks were crazy expensive and 409s though cool,came in heavy cars and had valve train problems.

now that we are living in technological times,everything is just simple math,and there are still several ways to skin the same cat.
I often tell people when they choose a cam,there are several that are correct.whats correct for you may not be correct for me.
this is why we are here,sure,lets argue,but keep it clear and honest.
Can we do things cheaper? yes,,,but at what cost? If you dont want to balance your engine,then dont.If you dont want to deck/square your engine,then dont.thats almost enough savings to buy a blower.

If I put something in my car,I want to drive it.I dont care if you sit on my fender.I let some people drive my car and I dont want to give special instructions to make it work. I put good quality parts in the car. I do things differently and have decent success.I like to bench race.
lets enjoy this site and have good arguments
12-29-2012 06:32 AM
1Gary
Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
gary ,, for a guy that posted he knew nothing about blowers or tuning them suddenly you are a wealth of info.

Bull ****. You have no clue and a a flat lier and or your cruiser buddy cannot tune an engine.

All of what you posted would be the result of a very poor poor engine tune fron someone who has no clue.

Getting a year ouf of a street cruiser that mabe gets driven up to the cruise night and parked, once a week.
And the motor and blower are finished after 1 year. Give it up.

More BS is the BS abut external balance cranks and blowers. First blower motor I did was a 400SBC with a stock cast 400crank.
The crank is still prestine.

Many many 400's and 454's are blown with no problems at all.
You and your cruiser club friends just have no clue how to tune an engine.
Everything you posted is just pure garbage... spule...
This car club has been in existence since the 1950's.

If it where only one member I wouldn't have passed along the info

I didn't say the motor and blower is done,I said the blower strips where.

The case for the cranks is illustrated as well by the offering of larger crank snouts by the aftermarket.And where the offerings in the blown LSx engines also are steel cranks for good reasons.And by LPE engines are steel cranks too.And where most of all I have seen the failures first hand.So I am saying your advise on that count is misleading with the potential of damage and a risk factor that is high.You can't site one 400 an expect that to cover all cast cranks.What compounds this all is it seems in every post I have read from you,you have never told anyone not to use marginal parts.Never.Don't expect me to set idly back and not speak out.When I asked you if you have ever own one,you side stepped that question.When I asked you about details about this "tune" you keep bring up,three times you didn't or couldn't give me any details.

Now I didn't even ask you this,but one of reasons why turbos are so popular,is it doesn't take ANY hp to run them and the turbos are tons easier on a engine than any other power adder.And certainly even the smaller blowers do take away hp to drive them.So you never spoke or considered if you have to back away from the advantages of a blower because of pump gas and the substandard bottom end and then still try to balance out the losses due to the amount of hp it costs to run the blowers.Sure sounds like a recipe for decorating a engine with minimum results.Sure sounds kwel through.LOL.

Then you didn't that I recall,say anything about blower engines and the required ring gap.

All and all your portrayal of blower engines is that they are cheap and do not have a set of their own requirements to build other than this evasive tune you keep talking about.Really my advise to you as a reader,is much of what you have posted about blowers sure sounds like a article(s) out of a car magazine.Where as the details are conveniently and extra costs left out in order to sell the blowers.Hell through out this thread I don't recall you saying anything about what the turn key costs are.And the worst part is you have Dave so convinced it is so cheap,that taking away money from his 383 is good advise,but you opened a door that would lead to a hard lesson learned when he finds the facts of a turn key cost.

So you can be all excited about how it looks and what it sounds like,yet there are two sides to every story which you haven't covered.

BTW.The ten yrs I have been apart of a forum of one kind or another and served as a Admin on a sizable Chevy forum,I learned when a discussion is reduced to name calling,it is the beginning of the end of the thread.Also the person doing the name calling is so defensive mainly because he has never done what he is suggesting others to do.

So please don't.It never serves anyone.And for the O/P's sake,lets stick to just the opposing opinions.Let's not force this thread to be closed.
12-29-2012 12:47 AM
bygddy As for the tuning argument, I agree, that it looks like you attempted to bait fbird into a debate. But as yet again I will attest to not having anywhere near the knowledge or skill level he has, I will refrain from throwing my 2 cents in....I will say that he can be abrasive, and slightly blunt at times, but has always been very helpfull, and knows his ****. And is always willing to share and try and help.
Dave
12-29-2012 12:20 AM
F-BIRD'88 gary ,, for a guy that posted he knew nothing about blowers or tuning them suddenly you are a wealth of info.

Bull ****. You have no clue and a a flat lier and or your cruiser buddy cannot tune an engine.

All of what you posted would be the result of a very poor poor engine tune fron someone who has no clue.

Getting a year ouf of a street cruiser that mabe gets driven up to the cruise night and parked, once a week.
And the motor and blower are finished after 1 year. Give it up.

More BS is the BS abut external balance cranks and blowers. First blower motor I did was a 400SBC with a stock cast 400crank.
The crank is still prestine.

Many many 400's and 454's are blown with no problems at all.
You and your cruiser club friends just have no clue how to tune an engine.
Everything you posted is just pure garbage... spule...
12-29-2012 12:14 AM
bygddy
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Gary View Post
One more thing to your list while your surfing my user.Hard heads like yourself can't be taught.You sure your getting this or are you acting out like a brat kid??. All this FREE info and experience.The breaking parts is in no small way what I advising you against.
Likely a little bit of column a, and a bit of column b.
I can be taught, and not once did I claim to be smarter then the average bear. You have 25yrs on me, and with that comes knowledge and experience. I respect and appreciate that. It was the methodology behind it, it was your theory that indidnt agree with. In can't ever agree that a blanket statement about "open book build" is the way to go. My neighbour is 72yrs old, has been building his 57 Chevy for 20 years now, because he is saving for the best parts, the correct resto parts, etc etc.....he essentially now hates his car, its not a hobby anymore, its not fun. Its something he feels he started, so has to finish, nothing more. Guess what....its not ever going to get done. His kids have zero interest in cars or the hobby because lets be honest, buying parts your not going to use for who knows how long isn't much fun or very interesting. So he will move on, the car will get sold, and hopefully assembled and driven...but it seems dumb to me....my stuff isn't pretty, its not the fastest, hell its likely not the safest or even the most reliable....but its absolutely a riot every time I drive it....and if something does happen....I don't have a pile of money wrapped up in it and it can be fixed.....my kids, boy and girl, both wrench with me in the garage, and both love actually going place in whatever I happen to be driving as a toy. Because I'm not waiting on the funds to do everything "right" ....I'm making do with what I have, or can modify, and I'm enjoying every second of it....the budget is going to be different for some, and if i had more cash to spend, I wouldn't be "saving" I would be buying the best, and still abusing it daily.....so its not the dollars of it....its the mentality you displayed with your "go bowling" crack....if you can't afford the best, the. Piss off....the sport doesn't need you.....that's how it read to me, and its offensive, and narrow minded...and doesn't help any of the 20 something guys or girls that may be reading any of this inane blather in hopes of learning how to make their left over, recycled or used junk faster, more fun, and usable for its intent....and that's having fun...and getting involved....that's it.....I have nothing against you, I don't think I'm smarter or more skilled, but I absolutely believe I have a different outlook on things. For the record....I grew up in a street rod family, I have pics of me at all ages in my uncles rumble seat, 1935 ford, no interior, tired typical SBC, but it got driven, alot, and got me into this hobby....and as the years progressed the car got better parts, and a nice interior, actual paint even....but not once do I ever recall it being down for a summer, or not being enjoyed while he was waiting on only the "best" parts or waiting for it to be done "right" .....and I'm grateful for that......nuff said. I will gladly get off my soapbox and leave it alone.
Thanks for listening
Dave
12-28-2012 11:22 PM
1Gary
Quote:
Originally Posted by bygddy View Post
The hits just keep on coming, I will amend my list accordingly
305 heads = garbage always
Budgets are stupid, spend what it takes to have the best no matter how long it takes
Dont home port anything, cause clearly the results will be mediocre at best.
Make sure all blower builds use forged cranks, its an absolute
And replace or rebuild your blower every season regardless of cost or need.
Don't drive your hotrod until its perfect, has the best of everything, and can suitably fill a parking spot in the grass with the hood open to show off all the cash you spent to get it there.
And make sure today's youth knows its not OK to use used, or recycled, or second tier parts on their rides.....so that way, when they are finished college, payed off their student loans, established a family, a retirement fund, and have an unlimited budget to work with, they can finally enjoy OUR hobby.....except by then, they will have forgotten how it feels to build something, go fast, break parts, rebuild, and enjoy all of it....
I guess that about covers it.
Thanks for coming out.
One more thing to your list while your surfing my user.Hard heads like yourself can't be taught.You sure your getting this or are you acting out like a brat kid??. All this FREE info and experience.The breaking parts is in no small way what I advising you against.
12-28-2012 04:35 PM
bygddy
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Gary View Post
Well F-Bird,I have been close to a fairly large car club president here.We both have been at a number of cruise nights and car shows over the yrs.You know how we set on lawn chairs and bench race and talk about their cars.

Some have had blowers on their cars for as long as I have known them and there are some new guys that have them for going on their second season.
These are guys that I in person have stood in front of the blown cars and in person talked to them about them.Count on the being "Real Street" info.

Me if I count my very early yrs,given being 65,have been around hot rods for lets say 50 yrs.Watch it grow and evolve.

I am kind of insulted by the sarcastic comment about"leaving my fingers,tools,and dirt" out of a blower.

I am always a cost benefit kind of logical guy.As always like in everything else,if it sounds too true,it is likely not.

The guys I know with blowers using the best blower services out there(not a shadetree operation),have told me at best they get a season,maybe a season and a haft before the blowers need service and many need new Teflon strips.And yes three have 177's that told me that.So the idea of one out lasting it'd owner is just not the case.

One of the most critical relationships is certainly to know as a fact the amount of boost vs CFM in terms of heads intake runner cc's,camming, and carb size.It is a fact that blower motors MUST run a enriched a/f mixture so as to cover the top end to avoid a lean condition on the top end.That is also true using the best ignition timing devises out there to retard the timing at the top end.A carb's ability to change it's fuel delivery at idle vs secondary top end a/f just because it is mounted on blower,just doesn't happen.It is because of that fact we have seen the development of fuel injection systems for street blower motors where the fuel curves are easier to manage.

The combination of a fat bottom end mixtures and a retarded top end results in a heavier use of spark plugs.When you are not at WOT all the time the fatter mixture fouls plugs.And miss fires is the worst case for any blower motor.

Where there is heat there is power to be harvested,but there is a great amount of carbon build up in the oil. That is why turbo motors must have more frequent oil changes and the same holds true with blower motors.

The blower guys have told me you have to play a balancing act with trying to get rid of the effects of blower vs the loss of power.

I do remember many saying yrs ago,they wish someone would come up with a clutch system for the underdrive that they could program on the fly.I don't know if someone has that now,but sure sounding like a slick system idea.

Everyone has told me NO external balance cast crankshafts for any kind of blower use.The stress levels are just too great for number 2 main journal.

I am going to leave it here.Bottom line.As it is with anything in hot rodding there isn't any "free rides",there are trade offs.
The hits just keep on coming, I will amend my list accordingly
305 heads = garbage always
Budgets are stupid, spend what it takes to have the best no matter how long it takes
Dont home port anything, cause clearly the results will be mediocre at best.
Make sure all blower builds use forged cranks, its an absolute
And replace or rebuild your blower every season regardless of cost or need.
Don't drive your hotrod until its perfect, has the best of everything, and can suitably fill a parking spot in the grass with the hood open to show off all the cash you spent to get it there.
And make sure today's youth knows its not OK to use used, or recycled, or second tier parts on their rides.....so that way, when they are finished college, payed off their student loans, established a family, a retirement fund, and have an unlimited budget to work with, they can finally enjoy OUR hobby.....except by then, they will have forgotten how it feels to build something, go fast, break parts, rebuild, and enjoy all of it....
I guess that about covers it.
Thanks for coming out.
12-28-2012 03:29 PM
F-BIRD'88
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
FWIW, the loaded CIRCUMFERENCE is what you're really after.
You get that from the measured loaded radius and some simple math.
12-28-2012 03:12 PM
ap72
Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
What is the true on the car Loaded effective diameter of your 31" tall tires.???

measured loaded radius x 2 measured from the ground to the axle center.

What is the true vehicle+ driver weight. take it and scale it, with your fat *** in the seat.

local scrap dealer, junk yard, truck yard, hiway truck scale.

your planed 383 engine combo so far will make an honest 440 to 460hp on a real engine dyno.
Its a good runner for sure but not 500hp.

If you want it dynoed,bring it down here and we can get it dynoed. (engine dyno, chassis dyno or both, your choice)
you just have to pay the dyno session bill.
FWIW, the loaded CIRCUMFERENCE is what you're really after.
12-28-2012 09:14 AM
1Gary
Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
Keep dirt and your fingers and tools out of the blower and this will not happen. The rotors never touch the case under normal use.
its is possible to strip the 177 rotors, but you don;t need to.

The bearings and seals and drive nose is serviceable. When it does eventually need servicing its not complicated or expesnsive.
There are many many good blower rebuild service shops that do these rebuilds. Including Holleys factory shop, Dyers, BDS etc etc. This blower normally out lasts the owner.
Well F-Bird,I have been close to a fairly large car club president here.We both have been at a number of cruise nights and car shows over the yrs.You know how we set on lawn chairs and bench race and talk about their cars.

Some have had blowers on their cars for as long as I have known them and there are some new guys that have them for going on their second season.
These are guys that I in person have stood in front of the blown cars and in person talked to them about them.Count on the being "Real Street" info.

Me if I count my very early yrs,given being 65,have been around hot rods for lets say 50 yrs.Watch it grow and evolve.

I am kind of insulted by the sarcastic comment about"leaving my fingers,tools,and dirt" out of a blower.

I am always a cost benefit kind of logical guy.As always like in everything else,if it sounds too true,it is likely not.

The guys I know with blowers using the best blower services out there(not a shadetree operation),have told me at best they get a season,maybe a season and a haft before the blowers need service and many need new Teflon strips.And yes three have 177's that told me that.So the idea of one out lasting it'd owner is just not the case.

One of the most critical relationships is certainly to know as a fact the amount of boost vs CFM in terms of heads intake runner cc's,camming, and carb size.It is a fact that blower motors MUST run a enriched a/f mixture so as to cover the top end to avoid a lean condition on the top end.That is also true using the best ignition timing devises out there to retard the timing at the top end.A carb's ability to change it's fuel delivery at idle vs secondary top end a/f just because it is mounted on blower,just doesn't happen.It is because of that fact we have seen the development of fuel injection systems for street blower motors where the fuel curves are easier to manage.

The combination of a fat bottom end mixtures and a retarded top end results in a heavier use of spark plugs.When you are not at WOT all the time the fatter mixture fouls plugs.And miss fires is the worst case for any blower motor.

Where there is heat there is power to be harvested,but there is a great amount of carbon build up in the oil. That is why turbo motors must have more frequent oil changes and the same holds true with blower motors.

The blower guys have told me you have to play a balancing act with trying to get rid of the effects of blower vs the loss of power.

I do remember many saying yrs ago,they wish someone would come up with a clutch system for the underdrive that they could program on the fly.I don't know if someone has that now,but sure sounding like a slick system idea.

Everyone has told me NO external balance cast crankshafts for any kind of blower use.The stress levels are just too great for number 2 main journal.

I am going to leave it here.Bottom line.As it is with anything in hot rodding there isn't any "free rides",there are trade offs.
12-28-2012 12:59 AM
bygddy
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
Nothing wrong w/them. But there's usually nothing wrong w/the original bolts. Don't forget the sealer.
Absolutely!
12-28-2012 12:54 AM
cobalt327
Quote:
Originally Posted by bygddy View Post
Honestly? No idea.....just what I have always been told to use for ultimate strength....
Nothing wrong w/them. But there's usually nothing wrong w/the original bolts. Don't forget the sealer.
12-28-2012 12:30 AM
F-BIRD'88
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Gary View Post
So a 177 once the vanes/case are worn is a throw away??.
Keep dirt and your fingers and tools out of the blower and this will not happen. The rotors never touch the case under normal use.
its is possible to strip the 177 rotors, but you don;t need to.

The bearings and seals and drive nose is serviceable. When it does eventually need servicing its not complicated or expesnsive.
There are many many good blower rebuild service shops that do these rebuilds. Including Holleys factory shop, Dyers, BDS etc etc. This blower normally out lasts the owner.
12-28-2012 12:22 AM
1Gary So a 177 once the vanes/case are worn is a throw away??.
12-28-2012 12:15 AM
F-BIRD'88
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Gary View Post
Hey,wait a minute.You said a 177 doesn't require vane service,But you said it is a roots style blower.I thought all roots have Teflon strips.Kind of confused on that point.
I hate to say it but it seems you are confused about a whole lot of this. and more.

The 177 is not stripped. Most roots blowers are not stripped.

Stripping the rotors is a way to recover-restore the blower case to rotor clearance on a rebuilt 671 blower. That re uses the remachined case and rotors.
Usually only used on a competition purpose 671-8-71 blower.
I suggest you download and read the technical-instruction manual on Roots superchargers, on the Holley/Weiand site.
The hows and whys are covered.
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