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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-03-2013 10:54 AM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by TucsonJay View Post
(Besides that... I don't like allowing lawyers into my world... since I am not current on my tetanus shots.) :-)
Oh yeah baby, my bosses ex-wife was a buddy attorney, what a PIRANHA!

I have been thinking about this subject and wanted to explain something.

I am 54 years old and painted my first car in 1977. Things were MUCH different as many of you can agree, there were a few paint manufacturers and that was IT. There weren't all the brands, available here (in the US) and there sure as heck wasn't all the "off brands". The store where I bought the material to paint that 31 Model A acrylic enamel in 1977 was a Napa auto parts store that sold Ditzler (PPG). That is the ONLY paint line they sold, they had all the Ditzler products, and that is what I used. We are talking even the "bondo" was Ditzler labeled part number 999! A few months later I painted the first lacquer job, a 64 Nova, again, all Ditzler. A few months later my 1948 Chevy pickup, yep, Ditzler acrylic enamel, with Ditzler lacquer primer under it and Ditzler 999 filler under that. (lots of it. )

My first full time job a week after high school let out 1977, I was working full time at a body shop buying our materials from that same store! My next full time job, Dupont, everything was Dupont! My next job (full on restoration) Ditzler, and I was there when they changed the name to PPG I believe, shot Delmont there with the tech rep when it came out.

A few more shops, all I remember is spraying the same products, no different brands of anything. Once in a while a specialty product like I remember very vividly at my own shop around 1982 spraying a waterborne primer called "Nova" prime to bury a sensitive substrate. But generally used all the same products.

So I came from a place where that is simply what you did, used all the same products.

When I became a rep as I said I saw so much failure all do not following the tech sheets, with the worse being the guys who would have all different brands of products on their shelves, it looked like the beer and soda coolers at a Quickie Mart for goodness sakes. I REALLY wanted to find out why something failed, I wasn't one of those reps who throw a gallon of clear at you to make you happy, I wanted to SOLVE the problem, I would still give you a gallon of clear even if you screwed something up, but I wanted to learn, and I wanted the painter to learn so it never happen again to them, or to me.
Like I said, there was a pattern like you can't believe. We are talking VERY clear patterns. The guys who thought they were brilliant chemists and that I was a dumb bastard yes man from the paint company, they were the ones with the most failures, HANDS DOWN! And I am not talking "my primer isn't drying fast enough" kinda problems, I am talking total catastrophic failures! I had one guy who had a complaint that bird crap was attacking his customers paint, (a SS industrial value line). I went over there, grabbed a lacquer thinner soaked rag and did the rub test. It came OFF, we are talking the rag was WHITE from the paint and with a few rubs was going THRU the paint! I then walked over to a tailgate I had painted a few days earlier on a gun demo and used the same paint. We walked over to it and rubbed it as hard as I could with a lacquer thinner SOAKED rag and it didn't even touch the paint! This type of thing happen over and over. Was it BECAUSE he used a different band clear, of course not, but it is funny how it happen to ONLY the guys with the habit of not following the tech sheets. I have event after event with a couple of different guys who did this over and over the 5 years I was a rep.

I got even more determined to preach from the mountain tops FOLLOW THE TECH SHEETS with every day. If like I said, with experience we do something different, than cool, if we can pass on something to someone where it works, than cool. But without the knowledge, going by the tech sheets is going to be the newbe's best bet.

Today with all the different brands and all the different "off brands" with only clears or primers available to us, maybe if I was brought up in this environment I would think differently. There ARE shops and home hobbiest all over mixing brands of primer, paint and clear and they ARE producing great work doing it. But again, I can't stress this enough, I am talking to the people without the experience NOT to the pro's, in this regard. If they follow the tech sheets down to using all the products from the same manufacturer AS THEY ARE in those tech sheets they will have less to think about, and less problems.

Brian
01-03-2013 08:47 AM
TucsonJay
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
YES they DO pay for the labor! YES they do! We have had a few failures, we give them an estimate of the repair and they paid it! This includes from S-W who paid for one AFTER we weren't even using them anymore!

It is a lower hourly rate of course, we aren't making a profit on the warranty job of course, but they pay the labor, YES they do. We have a legal contract with them, we do 3.5 million dollars a year in sales, it is a big business and you can bet your butt the owners make damn sure with lawyers that it is a binding contract and it means what it says it does.

Brian
Brian, I am certainly not trying to mislead anyone. Only going by my own painting experiences of almost fifty years. I can say that nobody offered to pay me in the late '80s and early '90s, when those things happened to me. It was at about that time I decided to just take the responsibility for my own work, and use paint products that consistently perform for me, and of course my customers. (Besides that... I don't like allowing lawyers into my world... since I am not current on my tetanus shots.) :-)
01-03-2013 08:36 AM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by TucsonJay View Post
In the last 40 years I have been screwed over several times by paint manufacturers... who have even intentionally lied to me ...so don't expect them to always be truthful.

As far as a manufacturer's paint warranty... they don't pay you to repaint a car when it is their fault it failed... so don't think the cost of the additional paint makes it worth being loyal to them. The labor is always the bigger cost! I stand behind my own work, and use the materials that perform for me 100% of the time.
YES they DO pay for the labor! YES they do! We have had a few failures, we give them an estimate of the repair and they paid it! This includes from S-W who paid for one AFTER we weren't even using them anymore!

It is a lower hourly rate of course, we aren't making a profit on the warranty job of course, but they pay the labor, YES they do. We have a legal contract with them, we do 3.5 million dollars a year in sales, it is a big business and you can bet your butt the owners make damn sure with lawyers that it is a binding contract and it means what it says it does.

Brian
01-03-2013 08:31 AM
MARTINSR
Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman View Post
Brian,AS much as I do respect your talents and knowlage I just cant let this one slide by ...Excuse my lack of diplomatic wording and sentance structure..

Well if no one else will say it I guess I will......COMPLETE B.S.
When I read this crap it sounds like youve never stepped foot in a body shop ,EVER...
You can put ANY base over ANY primer ANY clear over ANY base..thats the long and short of it....
What you dont want to do is use reducer or hardener in an other brands primer, base or clear thats where the trouble can start... As long as each uses its own system it'll be fine ,Thats how we get the best of the best materials with fantastic results...
In all my years of actually working in a shop (many shops) nobody sticks to all One brand ,thats rediculas ,not even the shops that sign a contract with PPG only to use thier products, use only PPG..... we want the BEST bondo, primer for the money and the all BEST materials to get the best work and its just not possible from one brand ....sure You can "get away with it",using all one brand, but it wont be the BEST you can do...I really feel sorry for the ones that actually believe this crap but I do understand how confussing it can be and how playing it (somewhat) safe seems like a good idea and thats what these big paint companies want you to think... Dupont chroma base even tried to make it true with their basemaker reducer ,you'll have problems using anything else but as long as you use the basemaker spraying it over any primer and using any clear isnt a problem....
Just tellin it like it really is...Sorry
You really aren't saying anything different than I did! LOL I said NEVER mix product components like hardeners and reducers YES even reducers unless you know a lot about the system.

I had shot for years yes in a number of shops doing collision and restoration including my own which I own and did all the painting in for 13 years, I went to work as a paint rep. As a rep I went into hundreds of shops. I talked to different painters every day, patterns emerged, very clear patterns. Those patterns were as clear as clear can be.

Those who followed the tech sheets had fewer problems, period. Following the tech sheets include using the products told go use on those tech sheets.

I am not saying you must use all the same brand, no where do I say that.

I will repeat again what I said, which is NOT that you MUST use all the same products in a line.

If you want to eliminate issues, if you want your project to go as smooth as you can, you stick with all the same products as they are suggested on the tech sheets.

For the home hobbiest, follow the tech sheets, use all the same products from one line and you are going to be WAY better off.


If a home hobbiest wants to have fewer problems he is going to follow the tech sheet. Tell me, how can you follow the tech sheet if you are using a primer from some other brand paint? How can you follow the tech sheet if you are using another brand clear?

And where I work now we have ALL the same brand. We were S-W for years and now AkzoNobel and EVERY SINGLE PRODUCT in the shop is of that brand.

Following the tech sheets is the first and foremost in producing a nice finished product, deviating from the tech sheet is the first and foremost reason for failure.

You and I know that you can deviate from it a mile and it isn't going to explode in front of you, we also know there are portions of that tech sheet that if you deviate from it an inch it is sure failure, if the home hobbiest who is doing this for the first time doesn't know which one it is, what should he do?

FOLLOW THE TECH SHEETS! Is a very simple and precise rule that the home hobbiest simply can not make a mistake with.

If he has a question about this and asks a professionals advice (hopefully are qualified pro like yourself) and can then deviate without fear of failure. But baring learning what can and can't be deviated from, FOLLOW THE TECH SHEETS is the best advice I can give him.

Brian
01-03-2013 08:17 AM
TucsonJay Here is a system I have used with no failures for about 20 years...

Marhyde Ultimate primer
Sherwin Williams lacquer based sealers
either R-M... House Of Kolor... or X-otic Colours basecoats
HOK SG100 mid-coat clear...or X-otic 34-200 mid-coat clear
R-M DC92 clear
...all reduced with GROW universal urethane reducers

I won't say that this will work with everyone's products, as I see a few manufacturers are putting some of their chemical components into things like reducers or catalysts. This is done so that you will... HAVE TOO BUY ONLY THEIR PRODUCTS!!!

In the last 40 years I have been screwed over several times by paint manufacturers... who have even intentionally lied to me ...so don't expect them to always be truthful.

As far as a manufacturer's paint warranty... they don't pay you to repaint a car when it is their fault it failed... so don't think the cost of the additional paint makes it worth being loyal to them. The labor is always the bigger cost! I stand behind my own work, and use the materials that perform for me 100% of the time.

To me... much of this is very similar to being told that I have to use things like epoxy primer. For a guy who grew up using lacquer primers, which the entire automotive industry was built on for about the first 75 years... 2K urethane primers have performed flawlessly in my world. The one exception I would consider is, to use it if the car will be left in primer, and exposed to the weather long-term.

I will also mention that I do this full time since 1986... so adding "unnecessary cost and labor" to all of my jobs would threaten my ability to make a living in our tightening economy. Good paint work is already too expensive for many. If I make it even higher... for no real gain... I only drive people away.
01-03-2013 07:39 AM
69 widetrack I agree Mike, some of what is recommended in tech sheets from a manufacturer is recommended to produce more sales for the manufacturer...the key is, as you said, is to stick to the reducers and catalysts designed for the product. For example, if you use a 2K primer, use the proper reducer and hardner, if you use base coat, stick with the proper base coat reducer, choose any clear but, stick with the additives designed and built for the product. Above all, don't become a chemist, just because a can is labeled hardner or reducer doesn't mean it will catalyze or reduce any paint. But once a product (like primer) is cured and prepped properly it can be top coated with any base, any or any single stage. Once base coat is properly flashed, it can be top coated with any clear.

As I've mentioned before, in Canada we have had VOC regulation since 2011, I know of many shops that purchased many gallons of non VOC compliant clear to be put over top of water born base...why...because the VOC compliant clear that was introduced at that time by several manufacturers was less productive (bake at metal temperature of 160 F or higher, not the typical 140 F air temperature), more difficult to work with, (although, at best in many cases did match factory finish quite well) and cost. I still stay in touch with many of these shops and adhesion has not been a problem.
01-03-2013 07:11 AM
Old Fool
Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman View Post
Brian,AS much as I do respect your talents and knowlage I just cant let this one slide by ...Excuse my lack of diplomatic wording and sentance structure..

Well if no one else will say it I guess I will......COMPLETE B.S.
When I read this crap it sounds like youve never stepped foot in a body shop ,EVER...
You can put ANY base over ANY primer ANY clear over ANY base..thats the long and short of it....
What you dont want to do is use reducer or hardener in an other brands primer, base or clear thats where the trouble can start... As long as each uses its own system it'll be fine ,Thats how we get the best of the best materials with fantastic results...
In all my years of actually working in a shop (many shops) nobody sticks to all One brand ,thats rediculas ,not even the shops that sign a contract with PPG only to use thier products, use only PPG..... we want the BEST bondo, primer for the money and the all BEST materials to get the best work and its just not possible from one brand ....sure You can "get away with it",using all one brand, but it wont be the BEST you can do...I really feel sorry for the ones that actually believe this crap but I do understand how confussing it can be and how playing it (somewhat) safe seems like a good idea and thats what these big paint companies want you to think... Dupont chroma base even tried to make it true with their basemaker reducer ,you'll have problems using anything else but as long as you use the basemaker spraying it over any primer and using any clear isnt a problem....
Just tellin it like it really is...Sorry
I was told that back in the early 80's what started this whole "use the same system" was Classic came out with a universal activator for acrylic enamels, classic was the beginning of U-Tech. The pint of activator sold for about $10 compared to a pint of DuPont or PPGs $30-40, what about quality? It was superior in every way and shops took notice. They started buying the Classic activator and the bigs took notice.
So the phrase you must use the whole system started since the "bigs" didn't want shops not buying their overpriced lesser quality (independent lab proven) product. ( facts provided by competent authority on auto paint )

If you put a product over a cured product of a different brand and the 2 products are compatible (no lacquer over enamel for example) there should be no problem. SPI primers and clears are living proof of this.

We are all conditioned to listen to the big guys, but if we are smart we evaluate their rhetoric and make decisions based on facts and ours and others experience.

Thanks to all the replys, both on the board and the pm's. Happy New Year to all.
01-03-2013 06:22 AM
deadbodyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
Martin Senour products ARE Sherwin Williams. Not just "made by" Sherwin Williams, we are talking exact same product with a different label on the can, same batch code, same exact product.

But this is all a moot point because the products that are used in production aren't even available to repair shop or anyone else as a rule. They are applied in a way that no repair shop could apply it, they are different products.

The manufactures have accepted products that they recommend, from every manufacturer who has spent the time and money to get that ok. When I was a rep for MS I had a book with all the products oked by the big manufacturers like GM and Ford, a list of Dupont, S-W (MS) PPG, Sikkens, products.

Now, that all being said, applying a PPG primer over the OEM Dupont paint isn't a problem at all. Even applying your Dupont paint over the PPG paint that was painted on you car 10 years ago after an accident. That really isn't an issue at all.

Applying a product over a different manufacturers fully cured product isn't a big deal, it's insoluble (if it's a good product) It's when you are asking the products to intermix, like a clear over another brand of basecoat, that is a HUGE no-no. The base isn't fully cured or dried even, and you are applying another clear over it, not good.

If you are mixing products, what tech sheet do you follow?

HOWEVER, you "can" do it, hell yes you can.

Pro's who know WHAT these products are can get away with it, for instance you are spraying a paint over an epoxy primer of a different manufacturer you follow the tech sheet on the epoxy primer and then you follow the paint's tech sheet as it may refer to spraying over THAT companies epoxy primer. This isn't "that" big of a deal, but it is opening up the door a little bit for trouble.

Your typical quality shop is going to use the same products start to finish, they have a warranty provided by that company BECAUSE they are using all their products. The painters have been trained by them, their products are all that is in the shop, and for this they get a life time warranty like at the shop I work at.

Does it mean the shop isn't a good shop if they mix some products, no not at all. But as a rule, as a rep, funny things often happen in those shops, we called them "Junior chemists" and they had problems, OFTEN. It wasn't so much that they used a different primer or something, it was that they were VERY open to making their own rules, the different primer by it's self wasn't a issue, it was that opened a door, that was just an example of the other hair balled things they did.

If you want to eliminate issues, if you want your project to go as smooth as you can, you stick with all the same products as they are suggested on the tech sheets.

For the home hobbiest, follow the tech sheets, use all the same products from one line and you are going to be WAY better off.

Brian
Brian,AS much as I do respect your talents and knowlage I just cant let this one slide by ...Excuse my lack of diplomatic wording and sentance structure..

Well if no one else will say it I guess I will......COMPLETE B.S.
When I read this crap it sounds like youve never stepped foot in a body shop ,EVER...
You can put ANY base over ANY primer ANY clear over ANY base..thats the long and short of it....
What you dont want to do is use reducer or hardener in an other brands primer, base or clear thats where the trouble can start... As long as each uses its own system it'll be fine ,Thats how we get the best of the best materials with fantastic results...
In all my years of actually working in a shop (many shops) nobody sticks to all One brand ,thats rediculas ,not even the shops that sign a contract with PPG only to use thier products, use only PPG..... we want the BEST bondo, primer for the money and the all BEST materials to get the best work and its just not possible from one brand ....sure You can "get away with it",using all one brand, but it wont be the BEST you can do...I really feel sorry for the ones that actually believe this crap but I do understand how confussing it can be and how playing it (somewhat) safe seems like a good idea and thats what these big paint companies want you to think... Dupont chroma base even tried to make it true with their basemaker reducer ,you'll have problems using anything else but as long as you use the basemaker spraying it over any primer and using any clear isnt a problem....
Just tellin it like it really is...Sorry
01-02-2013 06:07 PM
69 widetrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by gearheadslife View Post
no one could afford a car if they rub'd on it like a resto.. come on..
what few claims they get, they make up in time.. they bet the horse it'll outlast the warranty or get hit.. or better yet totalled..
with 16 air bags it don't take a hard hit to total cars anymore..
I'm shocked that my 26y/o and 28y/o cars look as good as they do.. as the paint on it,todays macco's bottom junk is better product.. than the crap they sprayed in the 80's.. in the oem.. both are tired but still shine. somewhat..lol
I feel that people assume that a new vehicle is perfect and don't spend enough time looking at the paint, or don't know what to look for. They do seem to be more critical of the finish after a repair than they are with a factory finish. I have cut and buffed numerous new vehicles, mostly to get rid of the factory orange peel and in some cases re-cleared a new vehicle before I cut and buffed it. The OEM has set their standards so low when it comes to finish, what is being accepted by the buying public is also lowered. (If every manufacturer is putting out poor finishes and you want a new vehicle, what do you do?).

As you mentioned that it doesn't take much to write off a vehicle today because of air bags, expensive parts and just the fact that vehicles are made to crumble on impact instead of withstand an impact for safety, does write of many relatively new vehicles. I agree that they do look after a certain number of vehicles for paint problems under warranty, but, generally there needs to be a call back before a manufacturer warranties the paint. How many people paid out of pocket to get their vehicles painted in the nineties when Ford had the massive recall on paint? I know I painted my fair share and the customer paid.

Ray
12-28-2012 03:32 PM
gearheadslife
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
I will say, I thought that the OEM gave up the high temperature paint cure with the major peeling problem that they had into the 90's...so I called a friend of mine who would know and this is what I was told.

"In the 70's they used to bake paint at 350 degrees to achieve cross linking...they found out it didn't work well. In the 80's with start of base clear in North America is when they started experimenting with different ways to achieve cross linking at lower temperatures and a more widespread use of catalysts...they found out it didn't work well. Today with the 1K Melamine clears, being baked at 285 degrees they are having a similar situation...it's not working well. Manufacturer's are still paying out claims for delamination at a higher rate than the aftermarket repair shop has claims for adhesion. Consistent adhesion at the OEM level is still an issue and time will tell."

I do apologize, I thought that the ultra high temperature clear bake went away when water born base coat was introduced and more widely used at the OEM level.

However, I will stand by what I said earlier, I will put a paint job done from metal up by a qualified experienced painter ahead of an OEM paint job any time. I know I would get a better finish (less orange peel) I know that the aftermarket has a lower number of adhesion issues than the OEM and because they bake their clear at a high temperature and have done so for many previous years of failure, I don't believe it makes it better...probably faster, but not better.

As far as removing OEM primers on collision repairs, I agree with you Tech69, if it's not necessary to do the repair back to OEM standards, then there's no need. If I'm doing a restoration on an old vehicle with old paint...it's coming off. Not many people are restoring a 13 year old Jetta, but aftermarket clear coat being durable with fewer adhesion problems...in a heart beat...and isn't adhesion part of durability.

Ray
no one could afford a car if they rub'd on it like a resto.. come on..
what few claims they get, they make up in time.. they bet the horse it'll outlast the warranty or get hit.. or better yet totalled..
with 16 air bags it don't take a hard hit to total cars anymore..
I'm shocked that my 26y/o and 28y/o cars look as good as they do.. as the paint on it,todays macco's bottom junk is better product.. than the crap they sprayed in the 80's.. in the oem.. both are tired but still shine. somewhat..lol
12-28-2012 12:52 PM
69 widetrack I will say, I thought that the OEM gave up the high temperature paint cure with the major peeling problem that they had into the 90's...so I called a friend of mine who would know and this is what I was told.

"In the 70's they used to bake paint at 350 degrees to achieve cross linking...they found out it didn't work well. In the 80's with start of base clear in North America is when they started experimenting with different ways to achieve cross linking at lower temperatures and a more widespread use of catalysts...they found out it didn't work well. Today with the 1K Melamine clears, being baked at 285 degrees they are having a similar situation...it's not working well. Manufacturer's are still paying out claims for delamination at a higher rate than the aftermarket repair shop has claims for adhesion. Consistent adhesion at the OEM level is still an issue and time will tell."

I do apologize, I thought that the ultra high temperature clear bake went away when water born base coat was introduced and more widely used at the OEM level.

However, I will stand by what I said earlier, I will put a paint job done from metal up by a qualified experienced painter ahead of an OEM paint job any time. I know I would get a better finish (less orange peel) I know that the aftermarket has a lower number of adhesion issues than the OEM and because they bake their clear at a high temperature and have done so for many previous years of failure, I don't believe it makes it better...probably faster, but not better.

As far as removing OEM primers on collision repairs, I agree with you Tech69, if it's not necessary to do the repair back to OEM standards, then there's no need. If I'm doing a restoration on an old vehicle with old paint...it's coming off. Not many people are restoring a 13 year old Jetta, but aftermarket clear coat being durable with fewer adhesion problems...in a heart beat...and isn't adhesion part of durability.

Ray
12-28-2012 12:13 PM
tech69
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
What we do at the body shop is more of a "forced dry" at 140 or so. While at the manufacturer I believe they get much hotter as the car is painted before it's assembled, I believe it's more of a real "Bake" and gets into the hundreds of degrees.

Brian
yep. Due to the rubber and plastic in the car it can't be done in a shop.
12-28-2012 12:10 PM
tech69
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
In the case of a 1955 car, I would take it the car down to bare metal or I wouldn't touch it, zinc primer, how little surface rust there is under the original paint/primer....I don't want to get picky but you yourself said how "little" surface rust is under the areas with original paint/primer....then it's not surface rust...it's rust underneath...the car is 58 years old...if there's a little rust...it's got to be cleaned up or it will come through. Products today are much more apt to minimize rust than they where 50 to 60 years ago, wouldn't you agree? Why, when doing a restoration would you want to start a foundation on 60 year old technology?
I never said that I'd ever agree to go over the paint on that job. I just said it's an example of how a repair done later had more surface rust.
12-28-2012 11:27 AM
MARTINSR What we do at the body shop is more of a "forced dry" at 140 or so. While at the manufacturer I believe they get much hotter as the car is painted before it's assembled, I believe it's more of a real "Bake" and gets into the hundreds of degrees.

Brian
12-28-2012 11:14 AM
69 widetrack
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcclark View Post
You don't think a shop painted item can be more durable than the factory?
I can show you my painted bumpers compared to the factory ones,
it's quite obvious my bumpers get way less road rash, rock chips than
the factory ones. That's why I use epoxy primer on them.
It's a big difference that my customers really like.
I agree with you, baked clear or unbaked clear. Unbaked clear will cure to the same level of hardness over time as baked clear. The reason for a bake cycle is productivity and nothing else. If the OEM could keep the assembly line moving as fast without a bake cycle they would implement that procedure immediately as would any Body Shop. The cost of running a bake cycle is extremely high and insurance companies sure don't pay extra if you have that cycle.

One reason your bumpers with stand rock chips better than OEM is the epoxy primer, Epoxy is much more flexible and creates a cushion between the plastic and the top coat.
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