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Question for the Pro's

8K views 51 replies 12 participants last post by  MARTINSR 
#1 ·
I often hear a person should never shoot one brand of paint over another. They say use a single system from start to finish.
How can companies like MS stay in business as no OEM uses thier product? Do repair shops not use MS products or ?

:confused:
 
#2 ·
Martin Senour products ARE Sherwin Williams. Not just "made by" Sherwin Williams, we are talking exact same product with a different label on the can, same batch code, same exact product.

But this is all a moot point because the products that are used in production aren't even available to repair shop or anyone else as a rule. They are applied in a way that no repair shop could apply it, they are different products.

The manufactures have accepted products that they recommend, from every manufacturer who has spent the time and money to get that ok. When I was a rep for MS I had a book with all the products oked by the big manufacturers like GM and Ford, a list of Dupont, S-W (MS) PPG, Sikkens, products.

Now, that all being said, applying a PPG primer over the OEM Dupont paint isn't a problem at all. Even applying your Dupont paint over the PPG paint that was painted on you car 10 years ago after an accident. That really isn't an issue at all.

Applying a product over a different manufacturers fully cured product isn't a big deal, it's insoluble (if it's a good product) It's when you are asking the products to intermix, like a clear over another brand of basecoat, that is a HUGE no-no. The base isn't fully cured or dried even, and you are applying another clear over it, not good.

If you are mixing products, what tech sheet do you follow?

HOWEVER, you "can" do it, hell yes you can.

Pro's who know WHAT these products are can get away with it, for instance you are spraying a paint over an epoxy primer of a different manufacturer you follow the tech sheet on the epoxy primer and then you follow the paint's tech sheet as it may refer to spraying over THAT companies epoxy primer. This isn't "that" big of a deal, but it is opening up the door a little bit for trouble.

Your typical quality shop is going to use the same products start to finish, they have a warranty provided by that company BECAUSE they are using all their products. The painters have been trained by them, their products are all that is in the shop, and for this they get a life time warranty like at the shop I work at.

Does it mean the shop isn't a good shop if they mix some products, no not at all. But as a rule, as a rep, funny things often happen in those shops, we called them "Junior chemists" and they had problems, OFTEN. It wasn't so much that they used a different primer or something, it was that they were VERY open to making their own rules, the different primer by it's self wasn't a issue, it was that opened a door, that was just an example of the other hair balled things they did.

If you want to eliminate issues, if you want your project to go as smooth as you can, you stick with all the same products as they are suggested on the tech sheets.

For the home hobbiest, follow the tech sheets, use all the same products from one line and you are going to be WAY better off.

Brian
 
#45 · (Edited)
Brian,AS much as I do respect your talents and knowlage I just cant let this one slide by ...Excuse my lack of diplomatic wording and sentance structure..

Well if no one else will say it I guess I will......COMPLETE B.S.
When I read this crap it sounds like youve never stepped foot in a body shop ,EVER...
You can put ANY base over ANY primer ANY clear over ANY base..thats the long and short of it....
What you dont want to do is use reducer or hardener in an other brands primer, base or clear thats where the trouble can start... As long as each uses its own system it'll be fine ,Thats how we get the best of the best materials with fantastic results...
In all my years of actually working in a shop (many shops) nobody sticks to all One brand ,thats rediculas ,not even the shops that sign a contract with PPG only to use thier products, use only PPG..... we want the BEST bondo, primer for the money and the all BEST materials to get the best work and its just not possible from one brand ....sure You can "get away with it",using all one brand, but it wont be the BEST you can do...I really feel sorry for the ones that actually believe this crap but I do understand how confussing it can be and how playing it (somewhat) safe seems like a good idea and thats what these big paint companies want you to think... Dupont chroma base even tried to make it true with their basemaker reducer ,you'll have problems using anything else but as long as you use the basemaker spraying it over any primer and using any clear isnt a problem....
Just tellin it like it really is...Sorry
 
#3 ·
This is a great question and I hope some others will chime in because I look forward to hearing all sides of this discussion.....I have been guilty of using PPG base and dupont clear, as well as using standox base coat and PPG clear. Plus there are apparently shops using SPI products for primer and clear with the quality base coats (mostly BASF from what I understand) of their choice with Barrett-Jackson type results. So is it really a big issue to mix primers, bases and clears as long as all of them are quality products? Now I should say I am referring to compatible and quality products from different manufacturers
 
#5 ·
If I'm using a clear I'd use that brand's activator but reducer not so important, but do try to keep it in line. I don't put much emphasis on having the same brand base as clear, but probably would if I had a lot more money cause in that case I'd get the top of the line all across the board, and the same brand, with the exception of blockable primers, but from sealer on it would be same brand.
 
#6 ·
This is an interesting thread. The way I see it is if a custom paintjob gets damaged and ends up at a body shop to be repaired that shop most likely will not know what brand of paint was used originally. So if a fender or door or quarter have to be blended, they are going to use their brand of paint over the original shoot. So that throws out keep all the same brands with out cross mixing out the window. I have done jobs that were all PPG all the way through as well as mixing transtar primers with ppg bases then prospray clears. As long as you don't mix different brands of activators with others hardeners you should be safe enough. And also follow that brands tech sheets with flash times and mix ratios. Now if your shooting a ppg clear and run out half way through the job and try to finish it of while it is still wet with a different brand of clear, now your introducing a good recipe for disaster as your now mixing different chemicals while still in the flash stage of the paint. But to use a sealer of one brand then a base of another then a clear of yet another, happens a lot of the time. Sure ideally it is nice to work with all the same paint line all the way through, but the truth is that does not always happen.
 
#7 ·
This is a funny subject, sooo many different opinions. First off, you have the people who throw around the "compatible" word. When there is a failure on a forum you will see someone throw out the "your paint wasn't compatible with the primer" or something like that. Seldom is it really an issue IF the replacement is in the same family as the one you should be using. :D

I am going to throw names out there randomly, they mean nothing other than to make a point.


For instance, if you were shooting PPG urethane primer for surfacing that you are then going to shoot Dupont paint over it, it's still urethane primer what difference could there be from using the Dupont Urethane primer? It isn't like you are using house paint or something, it's urethane primer for goodness sakes. But then you have someone who swears by that PPG urethane primer it is so much better than the Dupont so they are going to use it. Think about this, if it is SOOO much better, than it IS "different" in some way right? :sweat:

But tell me, why not just use all the same products? Why mix and match at all?

If there is one thing I learned as a paint rep, most every company sells a pretty similar product, if you are comparing apples and apples. Sure if you used some PPG value line paint and it didn't cover very well and then you shot some Dupont top the line paint it covers way better so you want to use the Dupont over that PPG primer. Why not just get the top of the line PPG paint? If you are comparing apples and oranges of course they may appear to be miles different, the apples and apples are way closer, if not pretty much the same.

I went around to shops all over the state of California (mostly northern Cal) and saw every brand there is performing perfectly for people.That old "Oh XXXX paint sucks, it's horrible" stuff cracked me up. Oh yeah I would think to my self, XXXX is horrible, that's why there are 50 thousand shops in America using it, your COMPETITOR is using it and he is putting out twice the work you are, oh yeah, it's junk. :rolleyes:

No paint rep can walk into a shop and blow them away with some product that is far better than what that shop COULD be using in their paint line. I say could be because often they were using some out dated junk like Dupont lacquer primer painting tractors and you come in and show them epoxy and blow their minds. They could have done the same thing with the Dupont, but the Dupont rep didn't show them the epoxy.

So if most any paint line (apples and apples remember) can give you a good system, why mix and match? If you want cheap, go with the value line if you want top of the line go with the top of the line. If you want super durable go with the "fleet" line that they sell to trucking companies.

Choose apples or oranges and then go with the whole line, why not?

Brian
 
#8 ·
I've always mixed products since I started. And even more in the last ohh 10 years, since the majors have got so ridiculous on prices. And the majors value lines suck, I feel there are much better products from some smaller companies that are around the same price is the majors value lines. Can't remember any catastrophes in all the years mixing brands. Of course there are certain things you should never mix. One companys hardener usually doesn't work in a different companies paint, and many different mixing ratios out ther. You should always should use the correct hardeners for what you are using (there are companies that actually make hardeners to use in certain ppg, dupont ect paints, but I've never used them) About the only thing I've used a different brand hardener in is enamel at some jobs that had a universal hardener.

And certain lines you must use there reducer in, because there are more then just solvents in their reducer. Dupont chromabase, crossfire, reactive reducer. If its a line you could use another reducer in without it causing major problems, you must use a high enough grade of reducer. You should never use something like ppg omni reducer in ppg deltron line, although you could use Deltron reducer in omni.

But all in all, I find most companys undercoats and topcoats are pretty compatable with one another, so long as you mix the product you are using itself with the proper stuff. Of course, they would like you to use only their product, more sales for them. They do design products to work together, but you can mix lines. No blowups I remember mixing products yet that I remember anyways. You won't get any warranty, but unless you are some big shop with an account, probably wouldn't anyways.

Now if using certain things like rust convertors and other so called miracle products, well all bets are off.
 
#9 ·
The thing of it is even if you stay in the same paint line there is always a rare chance you will still have a problem. I have a friend that works in a body shop in the boston area and has been doing body and paint a long time, so occasionally he will work on one of his own cars when things slow down a little. This plymouth he did about a year ago, was done with all high end PPG, no cross mixing. A few days after it was painted he went to blow off some dust out of the engine compartment and don't you know the clear just blew right off the car in sheets. Now this is a guy that does this day in and day out, using one line of paint and still has a problem and a big deal at that. Of course his jobber supplied all new base and clear, but he was stuck on all labor. So just because you stick with all the same high or low end paint lines don't think that some freak incident can't occur.
 
#12 ·
if there wasn't "fear" of one brand not working with someone elses,
no shop would stock or spray "sealer"
they'd just prime..
so the b/s that it doesn't matter is b/s.. as you'd skip the use of sealer and save both time and money..
anyone that says it don't matter, ask if they are spray'n a sealer coat. if they are, they were talking out their corn hole..
 
#14 ·
The only reason I spray a sealer is I always have sand throughs somewhere or another and bare metal on edges, as far as protecting one brand from another with a sealer just not true. As mentioned earlier above have sprayed different brands of primer, then a different brand of sealer, then a different brand of base and clear as well. There are a lot of guys on this forum that shoot SPI epoxy as a sealer then their own brand of base then come back with SPI clear. So the arguement is pretty much moot right there.
 
#17 ·
Experienced vs rookies

In my books, I always recommend to stay with one paint system throughout any particular project, whether it is PPG, Dupont, or whatever. This is simply meant to avoid any incompatibility issues. There are all sorts of "stuff happens" issues that can wreak havoc with a paint job, that you don't need to test fate any more than necessary.

Can you get acceptable results by mixing and matching components from various systems? Probably, but do you want to take that chance? I sure don't want to sand it all off again if it doesn't turn out right. If you are an experienced painter, you can probably figure out how to correct most problems, but a rookie probably would not be able to save a botched paint job.

Just my two cents worth. By the way, How to Paint Your Car, 2nd Edition should be out next spring from MBI.

Dennis W. Parks
Author of Automotive how-to books
 
#19 ·
A sealer isn't any more "compatible" with the old paint than anything else, in fact it is thinner to lay out better so being it has more solvent in it it is more likely to lift something or fail in some way.

Sealer is used for a number of different reasons.

1. Poor prep, too course of sanding for instance.

2. Make a uniform color for easier coverage with your paint.

3. Small sand thrus.

Brian
 
#20 · (Edited)
don't forget bleed thru. If you block on an existing paint and you had to go thru a layer or two a sealer is great at keeping things separated as to not create halos or rings or an edge sucking up the shine. If it does lift I'd rather be sanding on that and reseal lightly than trying to do it with base. Sealer is great insurance for a number of things
 
#23 ·
The original question, should a painter stick with one product line through out a paint job. The simple answer is, in an ideal world , yes. If the question was can I use one manufacturer's product over another, or is it safe to use one manufacturer's product over another it gets a little more complicated...and...Brian, your right. The key word is cured.

If your using a PPG primer that is catalyzed and you want to use Dupont base, with SPI clear and if your asking if it will work safely, I would say Yes...under conditions. If the PPG primer is cured and I mean cured and prepped properly you can safely put Dupont base over top...the Dupont base, when totally flashed will accept SPI clear. This is no different than painting over top OEM finishes or over some other shops previous repair....If it wasn't safe, it would be mandatory for shops to out line what products they put on your vehicle when it was repaired or for the manufacturer to tell you which product line your vehicle was originally painted with...Example...For several years now the OEM has been using water born base coats and shops are repairing them with solvent base coats...they still get successfully repaired.

Then we get to sealers....I have posted several times what my feelings are about sealers...but...here goes again. Sealers, in my opinion, are not a necessary step. If they where, a color blend would not be recommended by paint manufacturers. If you know what your substrate is and that your substrate is consistent throughout your panel that you are painting and your substrate is prepped properly, sealer is not required and is just another coat that you can get dirt in. Sealer is an excellent product if your prep work is questionable, for example, if the manufacturer recommends that your substrate be prepped in 400 grit paper and the substrate is prepped in 320..a sealer will fill the 320 grit profile and eliminate sand scratches in your top coat. If your substrate is questionable...you don't know if part of it's lacquer, part acrylic enamel or base coat, sealer may offer you a "sandwhich" degree of insurance knowing that all of your paint is going over top of the same substrate...but...you don't know how the sealer is going to react with all of the different substrates underneath it. The difference is substrates underneath the sealer will contract and expand differently, absorb solvents and catalyst differently and could still cause "halos" or even wrinkling (if the sealer is shot over a non catalyzed product like lacquer or enamel or if the existing substrate has been oxidized to the point that it hasn't any properties of a freshly catalyzed product). The key answer here is know your substrate, if your unsure, test it by pepping the substrate, wiping it clean with a thinner, if your rag with thinner ends up being the same color as the substrate your wiping...chances are you have a weak substrate and it should be removed....if your still not sure, spray some sealer, primer, base or whatever over the prepped substrate, if it reacts by wrinkling, extra long flash or cure times you have a weak substrate and it should be removed. If your still unsure, because of it's age, fading or you just don't get a good feeling, remove it, if you don't, chances are your going to in the long run and having double the material bill. The days are long over of dusting lacquer primer over top of poor substrates to build a weak bridge before painting...if there not over...they should be...that's just a poor repair or method of trying to get to a respectable finish.

Hope this helps

Ray
 
#34 ·
most times the baked on paint from the factory is a better base than going to metal and starting over.. depends on the car..
if it's a laquer paint on a all original car, I'd go to metal.. cause if it hasn't spiderwebed(checked) it will...
got to remember mid 80's and newer are 26+ years old now..
tons of these are getting rodded, as most don't have the green for the 64-72 cars,, or s 32-34 ford.. 55-57 etc..
myc-10(71) will go to metal, as the new paint buy the p/o (2000) lifted the oem paint, but not the primer under it.. no idea what gm used on trucks in 71 (enamel??) but the mid line duport pulled it up.. 30 years later.. if it was the new paint only lifting, I'd say p/o prep was the cause.. but it pulled the factory paint.. no sealer was used as far as I can tell.. from a d/a and feathering a spot


Thank you for explaining the acronym (P/O)

are you sure that the previous paint didn't delaminate from the original primer as the OEM has had trouble with adhesion for for decades?

Tech 69...please explain the difference between OEM baking of factory finished paint versus you or I taking a vehicle down to bare metal, properly prepping it, applying base coat, allowing it to flash, clearing it and then running a bake cycle for the recommended time and temperature. Do they use better material from Dupont. PPG etc., do they have better heat? Do they bake it longer? The only major difference that I'm aware of is the "E-coat". However, the E-coat has been blamed for much of the delamination that the OEM has experienced over the years. I'm interested in understanding what the the OEM does that the aftermarket is lacking.

I wouldn't be afraid to put a paint job that I did on a vehicle beside an OEM finish and with all being equal, I would stand behind mine much more readily than the OEM finish. Overall, I'd say that the aftermarket has had a better track record with respect to durability than any of the major auto manufacturers.

Ray
 
#35 ·
Thank you for explaining the acronym (P/O)

are you sure that the previous paint didn't delaminate from the original primer as the OEM has had trouble with adhesion for for decades?


Ray
from what I can tell.. the new(er) paint/primer and original color coat lifted and peels like mid 80's fords, take a razor to it, and it comes off like it's wallpaper..lol but the original primer is not..
it's odd, to say the least.. the feathering shows one repaint.
 
#39 ·
What we do at the body shop is more of a "forced dry" at 140 or so. While at the manufacturer I believe they get much hotter as the car is painted before it's assembled, I believe it's more of a real "Bake" and gets into the hundreds of degrees.

Brian
 
#42 ·
I will say, I thought that the OEM gave up the high temperature paint cure with the major peeling problem that they had into the 90's...so I called a friend of mine who would know and this is what I was told.

"In the 70's they used to bake paint at 350 degrees to achieve cross linking...they found out it didn't work well. In the 80's with start of base clear in North America is when they started experimenting with different ways to achieve cross linking at lower temperatures and a more widespread use of catalysts...they found out it didn't work well. Today with the 1K Melamine clears, being baked at 285 degrees they are having a similar situation...it's not working well. Manufacturer's are still paying out claims for delamination at a higher rate than the aftermarket repair shop has claims for adhesion. Consistent adhesion at the OEM level is still an issue and time will tell."

I do apologize, I thought that the ultra high temperature clear bake went away when water born base coat was introduced and more widely used at the OEM level.

However, I will stand by what I said earlier, I will put a paint job done from metal up by a qualified experienced painter ahead of an OEM paint job any time. I know I would get a better finish (less orange peel) I know that the aftermarket has a lower number of adhesion issues than the OEM and because they bake their clear at a high temperature and have done so for many previous years of failure, I don't believe it makes it better...probably faster, but not better.

As far as removing OEM primers on collision repairs, I agree with you Tech69, if it's not necessary to do the repair back to OEM standards, then there's no need. If I'm doing a restoration on an old vehicle with old paint...it's coming off. Not many people are restoring a 13 year old Jetta, but aftermarket clear coat being durable with fewer adhesion problems...in a heart beat...and isn't adhesion part of durability.

Ray
 
#43 ·
I will say, I thought that the OEM gave up the high temperature paint cure with the major peeling problem that they had into the 90's...so I called a friend of mine who would know and this is what I was told.

"In the 70's they used to bake paint at 350 degrees to achieve cross linking...they found out it didn't work well. In the 80's with start of base clear in North America is when they started experimenting with different ways to achieve cross linking at lower temperatures and a more widespread use of catalysts...they found out it didn't work well. Today with the 1K Melamine clears, being baked at 285 degrees they are having a similar situation...it's not working well. Manufacturer's are still paying out claims for delamination at a higher rate than the aftermarket repair shop has claims for adhesion. Consistent adhesion at the OEM level is still an issue and time will tell."

I do apologize, I thought that the ultra high temperature clear bake went away when water born base coat was introduced and more widely used at the OEM level.

However, I will stand by what I said earlier, I will put a paint job done from metal up by a qualified experienced painter ahead of an OEM paint job any time. I know I would get a better finish (less orange peel) I know that the aftermarket has a lower number of adhesion issues than the OEM and because they bake their clear at a high temperature and have done so for many previous years of failure, I don't believe it makes it better...probably faster, but not better.

As far as removing OEM primers on collision repairs, I agree with you Tech69, if it's not necessary to do the repair back to OEM standards, then there's no need. If I'm doing a restoration on an old vehicle with old paint...it's coming off. Not many people are restoring a 13 year old Jetta, but aftermarket clear coat being durable with fewer adhesion problems...in a heart beat...and isn't adhesion part of durability.

Ray
no one could afford a car if they rub'd on it like a resto.. come on..
what few claims they get, they make up in time.. they bet the horse it'll outlast the warranty or get hit.. or better yet totalled..
with 16 air bags it don't take a hard hit to total cars anymore..
I'm shocked that my 26y/o and 28y/o cars look as good as they do.. as the paint on it,todays macco's bottom junk is better product.. than the crap they sprayed in the 80's.. in the oem.. both are tired but still shine. somewhat..lol
 
#47 ·
I agree Mike, some of what is recommended in tech sheets from a manufacturer is recommended to produce more sales for the manufacturer...the key is, as you said, is to stick to the reducers and catalysts designed for the product. For example, if you use a 2K primer, use the proper reducer and hardner, if you use base coat, stick with the proper base coat reducer, choose any clear but, stick with the additives designed and built for the product. Above all, don't become a chemist, just because a can is labeled hardner or reducer doesn't mean it will catalyze or reduce any paint. But once a product (like primer) is cured and prepped properly it can be top coated with any base, any or any single stage. Once base coat is properly flashed, it can be top coated with any clear.

As I've mentioned before, in Canada we have had VOC regulation since 2011, I know of many shops that purchased many gallons of non VOC compliant clear to be put over top of water born base...why...because the VOC compliant clear that was introduced at that time by several manufacturers was less productive (bake at metal temperature of 160 F or higher, not the typical 140 F air temperature), more difficult to work with, (although, at best in many cases did match factory finish quite well) and cost. I still stay in touch with many of these shops and adhesion has not been a problem.
 
#48 · (Edited)
Here is a system I have used with no failures for about 20 years...

Marhyde Ultimate primer
Sherwin Williams lacquer based sealers
either R-M... House Of Kolor... or X-otic Colours basecoats
HOK SG100 mid-coat clear...or X-otic 34-200 mid-coat clear
R-M DC92 clear
...all reduced with GROW universal urethane reducers

I won't say that this will work with everyone's products, as I see a few manufacturers are putting some of their chemical components into things like reducers or catalysts. This is done so that you will... HAVE TOO BUY ONLY THEIR PRODUCTS!!!

In the last 40 years I have been screwed over several times by paint manufacturers... who have even intentionally lied to me ...so don't expect them to always be truthful.

As far as a manufacturer's paint warranty... they don't pay you to repaint a car when it is their fault it failed... so don't think the cost of the additional paint makes it worth being loyal to them. The labor is always the bigger cost! I stand behind my own work, and use the materials that perform for me 100% of the time.

To me... much of this is very similar to being told that I have to use things like epoxy primer. For a guy who grew up using lacquer primers, which the entire automotive industry was built on for about the first 75 years... 2K urethane primers have performed flawlessly in my world. The one exception I would consider is, to use it if the car will be left in primer, and exposed to the weather long-term.

I will also mention that I do this full time since 1986... so adding "unnecessary cost and labor" to all of my jobs would threaten my ability to make a living in our tightening economy. Good paint work is already too expensive for many. If I make it even higher... for no real gain... I only drive people away.
 
#50 ·
In the last 40 years I have been screwed over several times by paint manufacturers... who have even intentionally lied to me ...so don't expect them to always be truthful.

As far as a manufacturer's paint warranty... they don't pay you to repaint a car when it is their fault it failed... so don't think the cost of the additional paint makes it worth being loyal to them. The labor is always the bigger cost! I stand behind my own work, and use the materials that perform for me 100% of the time.
YES they DO pay for the labor! YES they do! We have had a few failures, we give them an estimate of the repair and they paid it! This includes from S-W who paid for one AFTER we weren't even using them anymore!

It is a lower hourly rate of course, we aren't making a profit on the warranty job of course, but they pay the labor, YES they do. We have a legal contract with them, we do 3.5 million dollars a year in sales, it is a big business and you can bet your butt the owners make damn sure with lawyers that it is a binding contract and it means what it says it does.

Brian
 
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