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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-02-2013 02:18 PM
gearheadslife
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1978chevy View Post
Thanks for all the replys, I see everybodys points on the heads and I definitely dont wanna send no more than I have to on this engine but is just stroking it to a 496 gonna make that much of a difference how much power are we talking with the old heads vs new ones
in the rpm you'll be using.. not enough to spend 2200-2800 on a set
01-01-2013 07:28 PM
1978chevy Thanks for all the replys, I see everybodys points on the heads and I definitely dont wanna send no more than I have to on this engine but is just stroking it to a 496 gonna make that much of a difference how much power are we talking with the old heads vs new ones
01-01-2013 01:54 PM
DanielC After glancing at this thread off, and on, and the p*$$*ng match going on, I have a slightly different idea.

Ignore peak horsepower. You want torque.
Peak horsepower is fine, if building a NASCAR engine, they spend time at peak RPM, where peak horsepower is important. Even a quarter mile car, used exclusively for drag racing has to pull through the RPM band, and does not spend that much time at peak RPM.

This is a dually truck for towing a two car trailer, from what I read in the first post of the thread. Reality is the engine will rarely hit 4,000 RPM. Most of the time it will be below 3,000 RPM.

Stroking it is good, it adds torque down low, it makes the engine less sensitive to radical camshafts.

There is a lot of talk about high dollar high flow heads. Why? How difficult is is to fill a cylinder on an engine running 2500 to 4000 RPM?

So, what experience do I have with towing, and big block engines? Not much really, unless you consider that for many years, I showed horses, and used a 1966 Ford F-250 to pull a four horse steel trailer, and a camper to horse shows, all over the Pacific Northwest.
I took the 352 that came in the truck, put a 428 crankshaft in it, making a 410, and with a four speed truck transmission, and a 4.10 rear axle ratio. Sometimes I would tow with the camper, sometimes without. Without the camper, and four horses, maintaining 60 up a 6% grade, in top gear was no problem. And here is the bonus. driven carefully on the freeway, below 60, the truck would get about 14 MPG.
The engine has a more or less stock 600 CFM carb on it. A mild RV cam, Stock exhaust manifolds, dual exhaust, but no "X" pipe. About the only high performance mod done to the engine was a single plane Edelbrock torquer 390 intake manifold, because the original manifold was only a two barrel manifold.

Now, if you really do want to race, that is another thing. But if it is really a heavy duty tow vehicle, build for torque. Do not worry about horsepower, you will hardly ever get to that RPM anyway.
01-01-2013 12:54 PM
496CHEVY3100 Wonder why GM would spend Millions on a design For a dually that would not work ,they could of ask certian people ,saved millions and not had to borrow money from goverment. us.
01-01-2013 12:10 PM
my87Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by gearheadslife View Post
what part of real world don't you get..
I feel sorry for the o/p as he'll be talked into parts he doesn't need.. it's a dually, it's to tow, he need low end torque.. PERIOD..
bigger ports will not do any of that.. not at idle to 3500 rpm..


what part of the Oval port heads and the heads that I was recomending have nearly identical size runner volumes dont you understand....



And no I would not recomend using 195 or 208cc peanut port heads on a larger cid motor such as a 489-496 with out doing some extensive machine work first. Even then I personally believe the money spend on the peanut ports would have been wasted since you could have bought a brand new set of heads for how much the machine work would cost you.

People like Lingenfelter did some amazing things, was it becaue they had to no, it was because they could. Did Lingenfelter build a 500+hp BBC with peanut port heads becuase he had to no, he was trying to prove a point that it could be done. But like commericals you see on TV, "THE RESULTS ARE NOT TYPICAL"
01-01-2013 12:04 PM
my87Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
my engine is 434 cube/
I often use stan weis as a guide for getting flow numbers on castings.
one of the local guys here I associate with is Harvey Resnick,who was good friends with John Lingenfelter, I never met John.
I get my engine parts from Jeff Lukovich.My best friend John Graham deals with Scott Shaffiroff. I use Richard Johnson for machine work.I ve used John Haida,Dave Hall,Buck Kinney.
So does name dropping help?
no, personally Ive bracket raced at mission/S I R/Bremerton. Ive road raced at westwood,Ive ralleye raced from BBY to harrison hot springs

Im not looking to argue with you again.sometimes you make very good posts and I dont even follow up because you were correct and concise.


I wan't trying to name drop at all, I dont personally know any of these people, I have learned from what they have written. I simply stated that they math that you so easily criticized was not my own but the math came from them.

Oh, since you are running a 434 I would "guestimate" the hp numbers to be in the 600-630 range. Please, let me know how correct I am, I'm willing to bet that I'm pretty close.
01-01-2013 11:53 AM
vinniekq2 my engine is 434 cube/
I often use stan weis as a guide for getting flow numbers on castings.
one of the local guys here I associate with is Harvey Resnick,who was good friends with John Lingenfelter, I never met John.
I get my engine parts from Jeff Lukovich.My best friend John Graham deals with Scott Shaffiroff. I use Richard Johnson for machine work.I ve used John Haida,Dave Hall,Buck Kinney.
So does name dropping help?
no, personally Ive bracket raced at mission/S I R/Bremerton. Ive road raced at westwood,Ive ralleye raced from BBY to harrison hot springs

Im not looking to argue with you again.sometimes you make very good posts and I dont even follow up because you were correct and concise.
01-01-2013 11:44 AM
gearheadslife what part of real world don't you get..
I feel sorry for the o/p as he'll be talked into parts he doesn't need.. it's a dually, it's to tow, he need low end torque.. PERIOD..
bigger ports will not do any of that.. not at idle to 3500 rpm..
01-01-2013 11:41 AM
my87Z Wow, you guys just want to argue for the sake of arguing. Most everything I have posted has come from the work of true Experts, not my self. I have used what I have learned from them to build the engines that I have built. The math I used came straight from David Vizard, the cylinder flow data came straight from Stan Weiss. Neither you have posted where you go any of you information from, and have continued to argue simply based on opinions. I have used the math, formulated by the experts, not formulated by my self!

Here look up the 156 and 236 peanut port heads:

Stan Weiss' - Cylinder Head Flow Data at 28 Inches of Water -- DFW / FLW Flow Files for use with Engine Simulation Software


WHAT PART OF AS CAST DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND!!!! I NEVER MENTIONED ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT THEY WERE OR WERE NOT CAPABLE OF WITH MACHINE WORK. ONLY AS CAST!!!

actually the correct formula is just over 2.2 X CFM so 227 cfm could make over 500 hp at 100% volumetric efficiency.It is also possible to make more than 100% V.E.
85% V.E. is realistic for most builders of mild street engines.
Yesterday 11:16 PM


I understood what you were trying to say but you all have been so intent on attacking me, I found a minor error in your statment and threw it back in your face. You guys are so intent on trying to attack me that you can't see the forest for the trees. You guys keep talking about what a heads is capable of with machine work done to it and I am only talking about what those are are capable of without machine work done to them, in complete factory form.

Super stock guys work wonders with their heads, pretty much none of them are using their heads as they were cast. This is simply the point that I have been trying to make over the last umptine posts, but you guys just keep reading it the way you want and continue to argue. Go back and reread what I have posted, never to I mention what they heads are capable of with some work being done the them, and I know that I have said "as cast" multiple times in my previous post.

"I have dyno results for my engine if you want to try your math


heads flow 327 cfm
solid roller 256/264x .420X 1.5&1.6--108/108 at 107.5
single 950
vic Jr
headers are 1 7/8 stepped 2 inch,,,3 inch collector.10.75:cr
"


You never put a CID on here but I would assume that its a small block and in the area of 383-406 but I could be wrong. This set up is very similar to what I have. I have a little more compression, nearly identical cam (255/261 .620/.620", 1.6 rockers on int/exh)my head flow about 10 less CFM at .700", where I acutally had them flow tested on a 4.040" bore plate, done right in front of me, that isn't coming off the manufacutres inflated numbers where they used 4.200" bore plates. I used a modified 850 DP, with a vic jr, All in a 385cid that is capable of running off pump gas (93 octane), mine was dyno'd at 573hp @ 6400rpm and 538tq @ 4600rpm (I shift at 6800rpm). The engine was dyno'd by Maryland Performance Center in Frederick, MD. I would guess based on 383-406ci, that your engine is making roughly 550-600hp.
01-01-2013 11:14 AM
vinniekq2 I mention SS on occasion as my friend Richard Johnson used to run 11.7s with a 265 in a 56 bel air. The SS boys go a lot faster than they should,and they are very good with carbs. I used to buy used cams from Richard
01-01-2013 11:01 AM
gearheadslife by his math no one in super stock should run what they do..
01-01-2013 10:48 AM
vinniekq2 just over. 499.??? is close enough to 500 at 100% I also stated that over 100% is possible.
go through my posts and I am usually conservative with results

I have dyno results for my engine if you want to try your math


heads flow 327 cfm
solid roller 256/264x .420X 1.5&1.6--108/108 at 107.5
single 950
vic Jr
headers are 1 7/8 stepped 2 inch,,,3 inch collector.10.75:cr
01-01-2013 10:46 AM
gearheadslife
Quote:
Originally Posted by my87Z View Post
I'd love to see you post his dyno info, and I love to see it done on non professionally ported peanut port heads. You can find all kinds of inflated numbers when port work has been done. My numbers came straight from Stain Weiss's cylinder flow page. The numbers are as cast. People like Lingenfelter, Vizard, Case... Have so much knowledge, experience and the proper tools and machinery to do some outstanding things like this. And much of their knowledge has come from the trial and error of porting thousands of heads. Most people do not have the know how nor the tools in their garage to do anything at the scale some of these people where capable of doing. These people had flow benches on site where they could check at the drop of a hat if what they were doing was going to benifit power or hinder it. Your average gearhead can't even begin to compete with what these guys had the resources to do and that they were capable of.

Like I said, the 156 and 236 peanut port numbers I posted where taken as cast, flow tested on a SF600 in 28" of water. It doesn't mention what bore plate was being used, I would assume 4.250" but I'm not sure. And about my math numbers about head cfm, max HP, and VE, that came from David Vizard, you know one of the most respected engine builders in the US.
509 ft at the wheels on the dyno challange .. through a th400 and a full floater rear.. in a dually thats over 600ft at the crank..
a vid of the pull is on the net.. I'll have to try to find it..
I have it on a zip drive.. but that computer is win 95 and needs work..
01-01-2013 10:44 AM
gearheadslife
Quote:
Originally Posted by my87Z View Post
I'd love to see you post his dyno info, and I love to see it done on non professionally ported peanut port heads. You can find all kinds of inflated numbers when port work has been done. My numbers came straight from Stain Weiss's cylinder flow page. The numbers are as cast. People like Lingenfelter, Vizard, Case... Have so much knowledge, experience and the proper tools and machinery to do some outstanding things like this. And much of their knowledge has come from the trial and error of porting thousands of heads. Most people do not have the know how nor the tools in their garage to do anything at the scale some of these people where capable of doing. These people had flow benches on site where they could check at the drop of a hat if what they were doing was going to benifit power or hinder it. Your average gearhead can't even begin to compete with what these guys had the resources to do and that they were capable of.

Like I said, the 156 and 236 peanut port numbers I posted where taken as cast, flow tested on a SF600 in 28" of water. It doesn't mention what bore plate was being used, I would assume 4.250" but I'm not sure. And about my math numbers about head cfm, max HP, and VE, that came from David Vizard, you know one of the most respected engine builders in the US.
509 ft at the wheels on the dyno challange .. through a th400 and a full floater rear.. in a dually thats over 600ft at the crank..
a vid of the pull is on the net.. I'll have to try to find it..
I have i
01-01-2013 10:30 AM
my87Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
actually the correct formula is just over 2.2 X CFM so 227 cfm could make over 500 hp at 100% volumetric efficiency.It is also possible to make more than 100% V.E.
85% V.E. is realistic for most builders of mild street engines.
Actually 227x2.2=499.4


And I'm pretty sure that we are talking about "most builders of mild street engines" here since 99.9% of gearheads don't have multi-million dollar facilities nor the vast expert knowledge it took to afford those multi-million dollar facilities. Even most of your average in home drag engine builders who are producing engines with 1.4-1.7hp/ci are still only managing 85-90%VE
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