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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-05-2013 03:29 PM
hcompton
Quote:
Originally Posted by LATECH View Post
I have been pretty relaxed with my build, time is no biggee. My Machinist is slammed right now. All his roundy round guys have there plants at his place getting freshened up, dynoed etc.
He has a 400 of mine there right now, I told him no rush. I have no place to store it soo...
My 389 (punched to 4.12 ) is at the shop, awaiting its final assembly.
I have a set of cabinets at the house to finish next week, and a couple engines to change before I can get back on it. But I will have it ready by spring for its home in the 64.
Yeah thats a nice guy. Local shops here charge if thing are left 5 days after being completed. They mostly focus on regular mechanic get it running again type work. They can cut a set of heads a few thu to get them servicable and make 150 bucks for ten minutes work and no complaints. Hot rod guys tend to be hard on the machine shop when they are paying a lot. So most wont even take the work in. Cant really blame then would you loose money to do performance work when you could cut flywheels and brake disc and be profitable with no complaints. Dealers also pay top dollar for fast turn around so realy no down time to speak of.
01-05-2013 03:06 PM
LATECH I have been pretty relaxed with my build, time is no biggee. My Machinist is slammed right now. All his roundy round guys have there plants at his place getting freshened up, dynoed etc.
He has a 400 of mine there right now, I told him no rush. I have no place to store it soo...
My 389 (punched to 4.12 ) is at the shop, awaiting its final assembly.
I have a set of cabinets at the house to finish next week, and a couple engines to change before I can get back on it. But I will have it ready by spring for its home in the 64.
01-05-2013 03:02 PM
hcompton
Quote:
Originally Posted by LATECH View Post
I had my heads milled, it only ran about 30 bucks extra to have the intake side shaved. It was well worth it.
I have 3 different intakes , not sure which one I am gonna run, yet.
Wow 30 bucks is cheap wish machine work was that cheap around here. So many dealers and shops keep them all slammed with work they hardly want to deal with hipo stuff these days.
01-05-2013 02:59 PM
LATECH I had my heads milled, it only ran about 30 bucks extra to have the intake side shaved. It was well worth it.
I have 3 different intakes , not sure which one I am gonna run, yet.
01-05-2013 02:52 PM
hcompton But it cost more to mill both side of the head. And pop up pistons which i agree is the way to go, cost a lot more.
01-05-2013 02:41 PM
cobalt327 Pontiac engines have made good power/torque w/the compression ratios obtainable w/flat top pistons and the 400 chamber heads, like the 6X-4. I never had my 455 on a dyno but going by my weight and quarter mile speed/ET I estimate it was right at 450 HP. 6X-4 heads w/FT pistons.

The OP lives overseas, he's stuck w/the 4X 455 heads. He can get to 450 or damn near it if he ports the heads and maximizes the CR w/the 455 4X heads and does his homework regarding quench and picks a good split pattern cam and runs 4-tube headers.

The OP's 4X 455 heads w/a 0.060" cut and FT pistons and a 0.041" quench will give him right at 9.1:1; 9.5:1 is the max I, or anyone who knows what they're talking about regarding Pontiac engines w/iron heads would recommend he use, anyway.

BTW, just because YOU cannot make 450 HP- even w/ round ports- doesn't mean it's impossible for the rest of the world, even w/iron D-ports. Because not only is it not impossible, it's common.

I'd ask what happened to the idea that you cut the block to gain compression instead of the heads, or what about the quench pad that didn't exist, or what happened to "455's don't use 4X heads"? Et cetera. But all I really need to say is: Just stick to the facts.

I don't know what you are talking about when you say closed chamber heads and 88cc, but the early pre-emissions Pontiac heads were around 72cc. If you're talking about the 400 size chamber smog heads, they're not "closed chamber" heads by any stretch of the imagination. 88cc heads on a FT 455 would put the CR too high anyway.
01-05-2013 02:09 PM
LATECH Even with the tiny almost non existant quench pad, it is still a larger gain milling the head than the deck, as the bore is a concentric hole.
Still negating your argument.
Even though you said "water" I am assuming you mean "coolant". If coolant is 300 degrees, they must be running something special and /or using about 40 psi cooling system pressure.
You should eleaborate more on your statements, if in fact what you say is true. Nothing backs the truth like good ol physics.
Decking the block is NOT preffered for raising CR as much as milling heads, or using pop up pistons. Substantial Milling of the deck on some engines Like the SBC can weaken them considerably
Also when milling heads , if you mill to raise CR, then you most likely will be milling .030 or more, Milling the intake side of the head is a better way to fly. That allows you to run ANY intake you want . Milling an intake is a backwards way to approach the issue.
Lower CR in the early 70s was due to emissions and the cat wizz gas they started making. Low octane wont support High CR. Gas mileage suffered as a result.
01-05-2013 01:43 PM
hcompton Ok so .050 gives you 11 cc without the quench pad add another cc max for the small quech and the two other very small quench areas. thats 12 cc out of a 112 cc head. Even if they were closed chambers it would take them to around 88 cc.

Now that is still well short of the goal if my math is correct please verify for me. Let me know if i am wrong on this one.

Pontiacs dont make good power with low compression. And stock heads including these have 153cc intake runners.

Smog Head Performance - Tech Articles - High Performance Pontiac Magazine
01-05-2013 01:03 PM
cobalt327 All I have to say is to the OP is:

"Warning: Be sure to verify all Pontiac info found in print, by word of mouth, or on the internet (including here). There's a LOT of erroneous and misleading info out there."

What the OEMs are doing w/"modern" engines has little to do w/a Pontiac V8 that was out of production >35 years ago.

As for cutting a deck being preferable to milling a head, I stand by my previous statement regarding milling blocks vs. heads, and will leave it at that.

Pontiac used the same engines/heads/pistons/CR regardless of application in the smog years w/only a few exceptions like the W72 and 301 turbo engines used in the F-body.

And of course the Pontiac 4X and 6X heads, etc. have a quench pad- regardless of chamber size, shown below:

01-05-2013 12:42 PM
hcompton [quote=LATECH;1630908][QUOTE=hcompton;1630899] Zero decking the block will give you more cr increase than cutting the heads.
Quote:

That is absolutely backwards. Most heads have a quench area in the chamber, milling an open chamber head verses decking would result in the same amount of CR change, with a poncho head, because it has a quench pad (even small) you gain more raise in CR thousanth per thousanth milling the head than decking the block.
Also, engines today wont run at 300 degrees in the cooling system.Damage will occur. Absolutely.
I like your enthusiasm here but stick to the facts.
And Cobalt is RARELY incorrect, if you have a valid point ..OK. As of yet I dont see that. Chill out.
A 4x head as quench pad? In the 113 form i dont think so.

And yes they will drove a truck this weekend with a hemi 2012 water was always over 290 and it was cold as piss outside. So yeah they will run over 300. This is how they are increasing mpg with modern engines. And this was a big truck v8 not a small four banger. You will see several more increases in operating temp over the next two years for the 2014 mpg increases the manufactures will be trying to reach.

In order to reach a decent cr he will probably need to do both. And decking the block is almost always preferrable to cutting the heads.

How is he right if you cut the block a good bit your intake still bolts up. Not true for heads. Then you need your intake milled as well. And .050 will do next to nothing on 455. Its not a 305. Even 350 heads need to be angle milled and all the bolt holes and flanges fixed. And that will usally only give you half a cr point.

Really depends on what engine he has. Trans am engine may be good. But passenger car engine will have very low compression if its late 70s.
01-05-2013 12:12 PM
cobalt327
Quote:
Originally Posted by LATECH View Post
Chill out.
Good point, I'll take your advice myself.
01-05-2013 11:43 AM
LATECH [QUOTE=hcompton;1630899] Zero decking the block will give you more cr increase than cutting the heads. [QUOTE]

That is absolutely backwards. Most heads have a quench area in the chamber, milling an open chamber head verses decking would result in the same amount of CR change, with a poncho head, because it has a quench pad (even small) you gain more raise in CR thousanth per thousanth milling the head than decking the block.
Also, engines today wont run at 300 degrees in the cooling system.Damage will occur. Absolutely.
I like your enthusiasm here but stick to the facts.
And Cobalt is RARELY incorrect, if you have a valid point ..OK. As of yet I dont see that. Chill out.
01-05-2013 11:20 AM
bullheimer Like LaTech said, they made more than one chamber size of 4X heads. If you have 113 cc's i would toss them, or your idea of making 450hp. Could still maybe reach that mark, but not w/o alot of work that i don't think is worth it.

i did exactly like what you said on my 061 heads for my 400. i think there is a pic of them somewhere in my album. i couldn't possibly have removed more than 2 or 3 cc's in my uneducated opinion. you HAVE to cc them and then use c.r. formulas to come up with how much of a piston you will need. Since most of those came with greatly dished pistons, you could get to around 9 (8.8 was stated above) with a flat top with valve reliefs, then with that 268 cam it might still fly somewhere in the 400hp range or more. i took it straight out of jim hands book, the arp bolts on stock rods, etc. i did not port my heads tho. i dont have the confidence since i never did it before. the machine shop did put the largest valves on earth in it tho, and i dont really know if he pocket ported them or not. i did not ask as it is a long shot to whether i will ever see this motor run..

i think my heads were around 101cc's and with a 6cc piston i was going to get almost 9:1 on my 455. so with a 113 cc head, i think you will have to getta pop up piston. but i am just blowing this out my arse as it's been years now since i did the math. but that is what you have to do. as Cobalt said. there is a c.r. calculator at www.sdperformance.com tho. and they are the people to ask questions about anything pontiac.

FOUND THIS THERE. ALL PONTIAC DUDE READ: http://www.sdperformance.com/moreTech.php?newsID=41
01-05-2013 11:14 AM
hcompton
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
Cutting the deck is all well and good, but you do not depend on cutting the deck for raising the compression as much as the deck is cut to obtain a good quench figure. That the compression may be raised is secondary to that. Get a clue.

Surely you must realize that the quench distance should be about 0.040". That is done regardless of compression ratio. The chamber volume and dish/dome volume is where the compression ratio is 'made'- NOT the head gasket thickness or deck height, except as a secondary effect to getting the quench right. Get a clue.

A Pontiac 455 can make well over 450 HP on 9.5:1 CR. 450 HP can be done w/9:1. This is NOT a SBC!!! Cutting a Pontiac head 0.060" most certainly WILL do something, AFA compression ratio is concerned. Get a clue.

One more time: The lower compression ratios of the '70s were NOT related to mileage- it was done for emissions. If mileage was a concern, they'd have used different cam timing and a different piston design. And higher compression can potentially get better mileage than lower.

Get a clue!!!
Heres your clue head gasket is .041 quench solved. Zero decking the block will give you more cr increase than cutting the heads. You do realize with 4x heads its going to be a pass. Car engine and did not come with pop ups or flat tops pistons.

My 455 ho had more than 9.5:1 from the factory it did not make 450 hp. Heads were also much better. A big cam big exhuast and good intake and carb got it to about 340 at the wheels and some tuning and tweaking got it a little higher but no dyno on that it was a small gain. I was told by several ppl this was actually pretty good for stock long block.
01-05-2013 09:59 AM
cobalt327 Cutting the deck is all well and good, but you do not depend on cutting the deck for raising the compression as much as the deck is cut to obtain a good quench figure. That the compression may be raised is secondary to that. Get a clue.

Surely you must realize that the quench distance should be about 0.040". That is done regardless of compression ratio. The chamber volume and dish/dome volume is where the compression ratio is 'made'- NOT the head gasket thickness or deck height, except as a secondary effect to getting the quench right. Get a clue.

A Pontiac 455 can make well over 450 HP on 9.5:1 CR. 450 HP can be done w/9:1. This is NOT a SBC!!! Cutting a Pontiac head 0.060" most certainly WILL do something, AFA compression ratio is concerned. Get a clue.

One more time: The lower compression ratios of the '70s were NOT related to mileage- it was done for emissions. If mileage was a concern, they'd have used different cam timing and a different piston design. And higher compression can potentially get better mileage than lower.

Get a clue!!!
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