Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board - Reply to Topic
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Suspension - Brakes - Steering> Power brakes dont feel right...any suggestions?
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Thread: Power brakes dont feel right...any suggestions? Reply to Thread
Title:
  
Message:
Trackback:
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Topic Review (Newest First)
03-01-2013 07:59 PM
chevyrestore its much much better due to the fact that the pushrod between the booster and master is adjusted correctly (the manufacturer swore it was good from the get go but apparently it wasnt). Still havent had time to follow the other guys' directions and get pressures or gravel test.

I can tell you how it is right now though its definitely good enough for a daily driver and im not afraid of panic stops anymore

Ive been slammed at work lately so I havent had a single second to crawl under there and get more info yet.
03-01-2013 02:02 PM
39Hemi Any updates on the progress? I have the same problem with the brake kit I put on my 1070 Mercedes. Mustang II front end to fit the Ford 4.6L V8, CPP brake kit and 7" dual diaphragm booster with 1 1/8" Corvette master cylinder.
Brake peadal is hard as a rock but can't stop for crap. Changed to EBC pads which helped but not enough. Considering going to 1" master cylinder and adjustable proportioning valve but was hoping to get a report back before I spent the money. By the way in a hard stop I have about 1000 PSI for the front calipers. Have not been able to measure pressure at the rear because I don't have an adapter for the Mercedes calipers on the rear axle.
So, any update?
02-02-2013 08:31 PM
chevyrestore Thanks for that writeup, I just misworded the sentence about the residual pressure valve, I knew it just help pressure and not provided additional pressure.

As soon as I can find a helper and some sunlight here ill check the flow at the various points and maybe find some loose roads or wet roads to test on.

The MC is definitely higher than the calipers but not a ton, sound like I should probably just get rid of this prop valve and put on an adjustable one and a couple residual valves as well. Ill let you guys know how it goes when I can get under there with a helper.

Thanks a million again!
02-01-2013 11:36 PM
aosborn
Quote:
Originally Posted by chevyrestore View Post
No when it had disc drum setup I used the MC with an inline residual pressure valve to provide more pressure to the rears only. When I switched to disc disc all I did was remove the inline residual valve and add the disc disc proportioning valve. I called CPP and they said when I had drums it was set up right and now that it has disc disc its set up correctly also since I removed that residual valve and added the proportioning valve (non adjustable from CPP)
Dude, we need to talk. There is some confusion over parts and terminology here that we need to clear up. Don't take offense, there is much confusion regarding brake systems and their various components and what they all do.

First off, the residual pressure valve does not provide more pressure to the rear brakes. What residual pressure check valves do is hold pressure in the lines when your foot is off the pedal. That is why they are called "residual pressure" check valves. 10lbs for drums (always) and 2lbs for discs if your master cylinder is lower in the car than the calipers (keeps the pistons in the calipers from pushing fluid back to the master cylinder and moving the pads away from the rotors). If you have discs on an axle you need a 2lb residual pressure check valve in the line that feeds it (if your master cylinder is below the caliper level). If you have drum brakes you need a 10lb residual pressure check valve in the line that feeds that end of the car (always).

In a disc/drum master cylinder the 10lb residual pressure check valve is in the outlet of the master cylinder that gets plumbed to the drum brake equipped axle. It can be removed (usually) so that same master cylinder can be used for a car with disc/disc.

Aftermarket brake system manufacturers, in an effort to simplify their inventory only stock master cylinders for a disc/disc system. No check valves at all, just like yours. Consequently the check valves need to be added elsewhere in the system if they are required, along with a proportioning valve and a metering valve if they want to include them. They do that most typically by selling you what is known as a "combination valve". That is what you have plumbed near your master cylinder.

This is where several assumptions need to be made by the manufacturer of your brake kit. First off, they need to know if you have disc/drum or disc/disc, because that changes the proportioning and the metering requirements of the brake system. Secondly and most importantly they need to make a guess as to the weight of your car, the center of gravity location, tire size etc. This is where it gets ugly. The OEM manufacturers test each specific car with different combination valve settings until they get balanced braking that is safe for that car. Now, in your truck for example if you take out a small block and add a big block, and then change out the rear tires for monster Mickey Thompsons and then lower the suspension, you have just changed the braking balance for your car, and likely your combination valve is no longer going to provide balanced braking. One size does not fit all when it comes to combination valves.

What the manufacturer described in that instruction sheet was to take out the proportioning part of the combination valve, which will likely increase the line pressure to the rear brakes (because it is no longer proportioned, the port is now wide open to full master cylinder pressure). That will increase the rear braking pressure needed for disc brakes, but it may not give you a balanced brake system any more. Having the rear brakes lock up first is bad, unless you like spinning out when you have to do a panic stop in the rain. That is where I have a problem with what the paper describes. Also in their conversion instructions you still have a 10lb drum brake check valve on a car converted to discs. As I said, that will cause the pads to drag on the rotors.

With all that being said, I know that you have installed on your truck a disc/disc combination valve (according to your research and what the manufacturer stated). It should have proper proportioning and metering for whatever vehicle the parts manufacturer tested it on. It MAY not be correct for your particular truck. This is where your problem could be. Do you think your truck has the same braking characteristics as a Camaro with a disc/disc system for example? I don't think so...Do they sell the same combination valve for trucks and cars? Again, I don't know, but if the choice in their catalog is either disc/disc or disc/drum I would say that two part numbers cover all the kits they sell for every type of make and model. We all know that there are more than two configurations of cars or trucks on the street. That is why I say it is a crap-shoot if it will work okay when hard braking.

What I am trying to do by walking you through all these steps in your braking system is to validate what you have installed and that you have installed it properly. It is very challenging to do without seeing the vehicle.

What I suspect is wrong with your truck assuming all the rubber lines are good (they probably are not causing your problem). If your rubber hoses were failing the 1000 or so psi your are putting through them every time you push the pedal will make that very clear, and assuming that your brake pedal or master cylinder mount isn't flexing, and that the pedal linkage is travelling through the center of its stroke, the problem is probably the combination valve. I just didn't want you spending money to replace it without checking out everything else first.

If you get good flow out of the master cylinder and it is noticeably reduced out of the combination valve, I would look into replacing it. Not with another combination valve, but with a stand-alone 2lb check valve in both the front and rear lines, and an adjustable proportioning valve in the rear line. You could also add a stand-alone metering valve in the front line, but I have rarely found it necessary. After installing all those parts, adjust the proportioning valve for full rear brake pressure, re-bleed the brakes (you are probably pretty good at it by now) and then go for a drive someplace (like the gravel parking lot you need to find) and do some adjusting. I think you will find your brakes much improved.

I also need to mention that I wouldn't trust a Corvette master cylinder (which is what you have) with a 1 1/64" bore. They didn't come that way. I would likely replace it with a new unit that has a 1" bore when putting in the new valves.

I hope this helps to clear up some confusion when we all are talking back and forth about brakes.

Andy

As to all the other folks out there who are into this stuff, I know I made several assumptions in my description of aftermarket braking systems, and there is MUCH more detail we could cover. I am trying to get the point across and also be understandable. What I have described is a summary of my findings from years of experience working with OEM, aftermarket and custom brake systems.
02-01-2013 07:53 PM
chevyrestore No when it had disc drum setup I used the MC with an inline residual pressure valve to provide more pressure to the rears only. When I switched to disc disc all I did was remove the inline residual valve and add the disc disc proportioning valve. I called CPP and they said when I had drums it was set up right and now that it has disc disc its set up correctly also since I removed that residual valve and added the proportioning valve (non adjustable from CPP)
02-01-2013 01:03 PM
aosborn
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
The following explains what I'm getting at: http://www.classicperform.com/Instru...structions.pdf. If this hasn't been done, the pressure to the rears will be insufficient. A stock-type combo valve is modified in a similar manner.
So what they are telling you with these instructions is that you don't need a proportioning valve with disc/disc brakes? They make no mention of a residual pressure check valve which is in the area of 10lbs for drums and 2 lbs for discs. I would suspect that the 10lb valve is in the outlet fitting that is screwed into the combination valve. If you have a 10lb check valve on disc brakes, they will drag heavily. This modification does not make sense, and just reinforces my belief that stand alone check valves appropiate for the braking system, and an adjustable proportioning valve makes the most sense with a hot rod or custom car. One size fits all combination valves are a crap shoot if they will work properly.
01-31-2013 11:28 PM
cobalt327
Quote:
Originally Posted by chevyrestore View Post
I see what your getting at, I was told by CPP if there is a 2 stamp its for a disc drum and if theres a 4 stamp its a disc disc valve and there is a clear 4 stamp so I shouldnt have to modify anything correct?
In a defect-free world, no you shouldn't have to do anything.
Quote:
The only other thing I had time to do was throw a one person bleeder bottle on the rears, looks like there a good squirt out of there but not a lot of fluid in that squirt.

What would cause that? Its like if someone was holding the pedal and I cracked the bleeder it would squirt out but not as much fluid as what the fronts would have.
This is what prompted me to bring this up. If nothing else cures the problem- I think you should look to be sure.

The last statement above could also be taken to mean there was insufficient volume as opposed to pressure. Like if the MC were a disc/drum unit, having less volume for the rear drum brake cylinders than a disc brake caliper requires.

Who knows- when all's said and done, you may just need a bigger booster.
01-31-2013 09:48 PM
chevyrestore I see what your getting at, I was told by CPP if there is a 2 stamp its for a disc drum and if theres a 4 stamp its a disc disc valve and there is a clear 4 stamp so I shouldnt have to modify anything correct?
01-31-2013 09:40 PM
cobalt327 The following explains what I'm getting at: http://www.classicperform.com/Instru...structions.pdf. If this hasn't been done, the pressure to the rears will be insufficient. A stock-type combo valve is modified in a similar manner.
01-31-2013 09:28 PM
chevyrestore no internal MC valves from what I can tell, I added a classic perform disc disc proportioning valve, no other valves in the system.
01-31-2013 08:11 PM
cobalt327 chevyrestore- Is there a combo valve on it? I recall somewhere you saying there was. Or an added-on proportioning valve? If you have a prop valve already in the system (in the combo valve not MC- so sorry), and have added another one, you have cut the pressure to the rear brakes too much.
01-31-2013 07:29 PM
aosborn
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
One line to the rear split at the rear end is fine.

Have you verified there's no rear brake proportioning valve in the MC? Is there an added-on adjustable prop valve?
The valve in the master cylinder would be a residual pressure check valve which does not provide the same function as a proportioning valve.

The residual pressure check valve in a drum brake application keeps the return springs on the brake shoes from retracting the shoes away from the drum, and keeps the seal on the wheel cylinder pressed out against the bore.

As to the re-bleeding of the brakes, what I am attempting to determine is whether the amount of fluid coming out at the various points is constant. Example, good flow right at the MC, good flow at the output of the combination valve, poor at the calipers. It can help to determine problems.

Also, it isn't surprising to find air trapped in a brake system that has been thoroughly bled. It won't hurt to go through it again starting at the MC. If it is indeed thoroughly bled it won't take but a couple of pumps at each point to confirm it. Also, make sure you have a helper working the brake pedal and don't just depend on a vacuum bleeder or pressure bleeder alone.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that until your brakes are bedded in, you won't get maximum stopping performance. Also, unless you are moving pretty fast you may not get lock up on dry pavement when you have wide grippy tires. That is why trying them on gravel (if you can) or wet pavement is a good indicator of what is going on.
01-31-2013 05:24 AM
cobalt327 One line to the rear split at the rear end is fine.

Have you verified there's no rear brake proportioning valve in the MC? Is there an added-on adjustable prop valve?
01-30-2013 11:55 PM
thinwhiteduke Mate, you got me there,

I live in Australia

Just make sure that any flexible lines are not blocked - free flowing

All I'm saying is that they can become blocked 'progressively ' over time!!

You should be sure that they are flowing as they should, and not restricted through 'swelling' and closing the 'hole' off......

I'm not familiar with your particular application , just be certain that your flexible lines are in good condition!!

Let know how u go!

Duke
01-30-2013 09:37 PM
chevyrestore should I have 2 lines from the prop valve going to the rear or is it ok have it with 1 line going to the pumpkin and splitting into two?
This thread has more than 15 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.